Paragon will be switching from 25man to 10man for MoP

After Dragon Soul progression many of our players decided to quit the game, some of them were already showing lack of interest during the DS progress raids. In total 34 players took part in DS progress, 14 of which are no longer playing WoW at all. Most of them were longtime core players. On top of that some of our current players can't put in the time anymore as they used to do.

We were able to get some quality recruits to replace the ones whom had quit, but not enough. So far we had recruited 12 players. It has always been hard for us to recruit new players and we pretty much had the same core of 20+ from late Ulduar to Dragon Soul which played a big part in our success.

During the beta it became obvious that the current roster will not cut it in MoP unless we get couple of more quality recruits. So far we haven't been able to get the roster we needed and have decided it's better to continue as a 10man guild from now on than to hope for something miraculous to happen in the upcoming weeks. This also leaves time for our players to find a new guild before MoP if they so desire.

At the moment it looks like our 10man lineup will be the following and we'll be pushing for the heroic world firsts as hard as ever, this time in the 10man category.

Tanks: Fragi, Sejta
Healers: Jhazrun, Smirk, Ets
DPS: Baltha, Lappe, Lazeil, Verdisha, Vivanda



I assume this will create quite some uproar, but in the end it is the best decision. If you can't fill a 25 man roster that lives up to the standards you have, whether it be skill, time or both, then this is the right step to stay competitive.

Best of luck in MoP.

go international already.... its not like you dont speak perfect english for whatever wow expects and needs... and you're only after a few recruits, not a whole guild

what a big fail from you guys.. cant say anything else than that.. all the complains about 10 man raiding and hare u are urself

Well you got some recruits, however recruiting only finnish speakers is a HUGE , may I say , cockblock.
"this time in the 10man category" 10/25 is all the same for me.
Looking forward seeing you in the top 3.

Good luck guys. You will do really well. If you raid the same hours during progress then I am sure you will continue to push for every world first given how much easier 10 man is. And I hope those not in the main 10 man roster find a new home - I am sure they will easily.

facepalm... GG paragon.

Good luck to you - keep up the good work :)

In my opinion recruiting in finnish is a really good thing. No matter what you always "think" faster if e.g. orders are given in your native language. And it's a beautiful language btw.
Good luck with the new content.

Some stats, because everyone loves stats!

How many members stopped playing after each tier and when those members had joined the Knockout/Sauna crew or Paragon itself.

-4 after ToGC
1 Molten Core, 1 Ahn'Qiraj, 1 Serpentshrine Cavern, 1 Black Temple

-6 after ICC, of those one was in army and returned in Firelands (USSO!)
1 Blacking Lair, 1 Karazhan, 2 SSC, 1 Ulduar

-3 after Cata 1st tier
1 MC, 2 Mount Hyjal

-4 after FL
1 Ulduar, 3 Cata 1st tier

-14 after DS
Not as accurate but along the lines of: 5 MC, 1 Vanilla Naxramas, 6 Ulduar, 2 FL

Amount of active raiders that have played from atleast Ulduar in each tier's progress raids:
ICC: 31
Cata 1st tier: 25
FL: 22
DS: 21
Now: 9

What will become of those not wishing to do 10m?
Move to Method or Envy, perhaps?

Oh, but a better question.

You've given names of those in the 10m, but not the classes they intend to play.
Will it be a guessing game until MoP?

The end of an era. Fxck Ghostcrawler.
Thank you for telling me that the raid mode will stay exactly the same asssss CATA.
All I wanna say is farewell!~

How easy is talking without even being, meassured or experienced a similar situation, isn't it? Are you aware of how big is the impact a guild suffers when more than a dozen of their core raiders leave the game? Do you honestly believe is as simple as 'hey do some recruit and don't fail'. Surely you think those 14 people are easily replaceable in all their skill, comunication and commitement capabilities. And we are not talking about a World #100-1000 guild. Just think twice without spiting garbage.

Good luck

Good luck

Well... that's kinda sad to hear.
Atleast for me :D
Paragon as it was the last 3 Years wasn't just a "WoW Guild" for me. You guys really inspired me in terms such as teamwork, succes, devotion and finding always joy in what you do.
You and your story went with me through my last years of being a teenager, so it's kinda touching seeing Paragon to give up their earlier vision (succes in 25m) in the moment I'm starting to live my life by my own and starting studying etc. :)
I mean, i've never really been a fan of something (like a football club etc.), but I followed your progress like a football fan would follow the ranking of his team, i watched your Kill videos with participation like a footbal fan would watch the finals of his team and I burst in proud and happiness when you managed to score another world first.
Through Paragon i found my fascination for the finnish culture and the country as itself. ( I just started my study about the finnish language)
Even when i stopped playing WoW 1 1/2 years ago, i always wanted to know how you guys are doing in the race to the world first :)

And since i live near Cologne i had the privilege to meet up with some of the Paragon members (like Arx, Xeno, Geru, Verdisha a.o.) when they were taking part of the GC or the RPC and they were so finnish that you just had to love them :D

So, at the end, i just want to thank all the members that made Paragon possible as a project during the last years and giving me something to be a fan of :D
I accept the decision you guys made and i'm hoping that when I'm taking a peak at the progress in the next months i will see Paragon on the top.... or even on the 50th place... it doesn't matter as long as you are enjoying what you are doing.

Farewell, better go as a hero than as a fallen one.
~ Skadia

Sad day for wow 25 man raiding.Anyway looking forward to your 10 man career

To all Paragon Members,

Ever since Dream Paragon has entered the raiding scene, they have been a force to be reckoned with. Demonstrating a new level of dedication and skill that spurred the evolution of competitive raiding onward.

It saddens me that Dream Paragon will no longer be a direct competitor in the 25man scene. Without a doubt, the excellence and elegance that the guild is committed to will remain as they become a top contender in the 10man raiding arena.

I look forward to interacting with the professional players of Dream Paragon and wish them the best of luck in Mists of Pandaria.

With great respect,
Entio - vodka @ Alterac Mountains

Well, this what happens when you only recruit Finnish speaking players. There are a lot of English speaking players in Europe and even us yanks would gladly buy a new account in the EU and start over from scratch to get a chance to be in your guild.

You guys are missing out on a lot of good talent.

It's not that easy ;p Different language, time & country makes it a bit complicated. At least that's what I've noticed as a Finn.

The same mother tongue makes it easier to communicate when no one has to worry about are they saying it wrong.

The time in Finland is not the same as the server time which sometimes affects to peoples availability and such. Being in the same country... Easier to meet up -> brings people closer to each other -> better teamwork. Also, when there is an ice hockey world championship going on, there ain't any Swedes saying that we suck (even tho they they suck more obviously!). And don't forget the Finnish humour, lol.

And how stupid it would be to recruit just couple of guys who speak English? It would make the whole guild speak English. And if they start recruiting new members at this point they don't know how the new ppl will act/play when it's time for NEW bosses? Not old ones. I don't think I know how to explain it well :d

Nice English lolz,

Agree with this.

As Finn it's always been a bit painful to raid with international guilds (I've never been in Finn-only guild) as we live in the damned +2 (+3 summer time) GMT and it means that A) People with jobs which have evening shifts can't most likely make the raid times (my evening shift ends at 20:30 realm time (21:30 Finland time) and when we manage to find a guild suitable for our raiding purposes B) we end up going to sleep at 1am, which I may say in a long run sucks balls.

This is a big loss for the top PvE scene, sad to see you go. However I wish you the best of luck with the 10man and for the rest of the members with whatever they decide to do.

You will be missed,
Sonie - Envy @ Auchindoun EU

Devai not staying??? he used to stream a lot of DSA raids and DS still not that long time ago...

ye what about devai ?

Hunky would you raid with a librarian?

haha dunno what u mean about that mate :P

onnea minun suomalaisia ​​ystäviä!

sad to hear that tbh! but what can u do ;(

Wishing you guys the best of luck in Mists of Pandaria! Thank you for all that you do in the gaming community, keep up the good work! -Thalia US Stormrage

I know this is sad for you guys, but I just want to say that I'll be glad to have you out there raising the profile of 10m raiding! Good luck, and may you have many more World Firsts in your future.

I was offered spot for the 10 man roster, but im working and i cannot play till 4 am and start 12 am. Therefore im stepping to sidelines. Ofcourse i stay and help what i can, but life catches up :(
Im going to stream stuff if i can play with them after progress is over, but if not then its pretty much R.I.P Stream T_T

ps. Efrielda btw now that i have more free time we can date, that was the deal right? ;)

Sad to see so many players leave, but will be following and cheering for the group anyways :) Good luck in MoP!

will sorely miss the rubbishing and downtalking of 10man raiding. i wonder how much the raid-gating announcement had on players deciding to leave considering the primary advantage top guilds have is time played per week?


Go international IMO.

how many ppl did u "have" that COULD raid for 25? and how many was missing so to say ?:)

devaaaa, the stream,

Wouldnt surprise me if Pandarian is the start of 5man raiding cause ther is no signs of turning the game around to what is was.

Paragon is no more. Ferewell!

This absolutely comes as no surprise to me. I've made several comments on my guild's forum in the past about how difficult it is recruiting to keep up with people quitting our guild's 25 raid team for whatever reason, as well as the extreme burnout the process of recruitment caused me (which lead to me to quitting our 25man team and ultimately ending it due to lack of anyone else interested in taking over the recruitment process).

Our guild started out as a 10 team back in TBC in Feb 07' one month after the release of TBC (I have always been the GM of it) and as soon as we finished Karazhan we formed our 25 team which lasted all the way until November 11' - over 5 years of 25 raiding in one guild!

As a result, I prefer 25 raiding vs. 10 in terms of just ... pure raiding fun. It's just a bit more fun to me, if you strip away all the administrative duties (of which there were MANY).

But in terms of recruitment, member logistics, dealing with team performance issues, progression speed, and the tight knittness of 10's, I like those aspects better than 25.

Paragon is/was one of the best raiding guilds of recent times, I think it will send a msg to many other guilds who look up to them and are struggling, that are on the verge of switching over to 10 raiding but are fighting it with all their might to hang on to their 25 format hoping that the start of MoP will give them the recruitment bump they need.

I think this will have some kind of ripple effect throughout the community to those progression guilds who pay attention to this, just not sure how strong.

Good luck to Paragon in MoP, I am rooting for you!


that wants me to stop playing WoW ;(

so.. paragon is no more competive in the top guild, becuase people never cared about world first 10 man.. and u all know it yourself.. even if paragon gets world first 10 man.. people will still look after the world first 25 man!

Go international, or disband the guild :)

It’s sad to see another 25 men guild turn to 10 men raiding, and even more so when we’re talking about the likes of Paragon.

We’ve seen multiple warnings going out at the start of Cataclysm about the end of 25 men raiding when Blizzard made all the rewards the same for 10 and 25 men groups, yet nothing was done to address such an easy complaint, and at the moment 25 men raiding guild are a rarity.

It was now acknowledge by Blizzard that 25 men raid is not in the spot where they would like it to be, yet what puzzles me the most is the lack of solutions to such a big problem. The only thing they talked about was more loot to 25’s without realizing that that will solve nothing at all and that given a bit of time it will be completely useless.

Do you guys think that, if by any chance, Blizzard started to reward 25 men raiding differently than 10 men we could see Paragon back at the 25’s? What do you think would make Paragon go back to 25’s if anything at all? Better loot? Different achievements? Different Mounts and rewards?

Best of Luck to you guys.

sad to see that the guild will not be raiding in 25man no more and i understand tht paragon am a full finnish guild but maybe is time to open the door for international players theres sum really good players out there that would love to join this guild and hopfully get sum world firsts in mist.

DS has been a proper guild killer of late !

Good luck in casualcraft, guys. It has been a pleasure watching your success in real raiding.

even if 10 still the best for me

I wish you guys only the best for MoP.
Your work as a guild has been more than inspirational. Always gave me something to strife for.

Don't stop streaming Deva, you're the best drunk Finish streamer on Twitch! (more impressive than it sounds).

Good luck to the Paragon progression team in Pandaland, hopefully you keep making some of the best encounter videos out there.

I've been listening in on the round table discussions about 25 man raiding, and I am in a guild that went through the same transition through the Cataclysm expansion from 25 to 10 man raiding. We simply felt it was the best "choice" in the interests of continued progression pace compared to what our 25 man picture was starting to look like. It would seem that multiple 10 mans with exclusive heroic lockouts adds a new set of challenges as well, but I have no doubt that with primary alts, its a very viable option.

The really hard part is the 5 or 6 people on the roster that by class balance of whatever circumstance end up not being in THE progression 10m, but end up feeling like they are doing a little bit of unwanted carrying with 5 or 6 of the other 10 in a second or third raid group compared to what they are used to otherwise. They are really supportive and dedicated members of the raiding roster, and really belong in the highest level content available to them. I think it ends up feeling harder to run 15-20 solid raiders with 5 or 10 trials and floaters than it is to run around 10+ or around 30, but leaves a greater chance of shared success under those type of real logistics behind 10/25 raiding these days. Once we got one team through, its much easier to go back and make sure everyone else is getting through. Eventually its the same farm festival that 25 man guilds are doing, only with 10 people at a time.
Best of luck to Paragon, I hope a lot of your core players stick through this to really make things work, and I hope you all continue to do really well this upcoming raid tier.

- Kirin Tor US

"Don't stop streaming Deva, you're the best drunk Finish streamer on Twitch! (more impressive than it sounds)."

Haha :D as much as i appriciate ppl encouraging me to continue streaming, i feel like there is nothing to offer for ppl who actually wanna learn something and not just watch me embarrass my self on twitch :) And i have noticed that ppl don't really wanna watch me playing any other games than wow and i can't really play wow if im not in the raiding roster you know. Im Paragon for life, not gonna apply to any other guild eventhou i know i have open many options available.