a question to paragons dearest members

[Renovattio]

Well first of all this is not a trolling post. I congratulate you and also admire the dedication of your players to achieve the world first = being best in the game. However i really would like to ask you how you enjoy it while you are getting it under the circumstances stated below.

1) You were filling the raid with a certain role (ranged dps) and were doing this in kind of a insane measure (only 2 melee)
2) You have exceeded your already record breaking stacking values and this time stacked 11 of a certain class to kill Nefarian.

Now first of all let me ask you guys; do you really think that raiding should depend on qualities such as: how many alts does a guild have; or the ability to bring extreme amounts of a certain class for a boss. I mean Really? Do you have any PLEASURE while playing you 3rd alt in a raid? OR do you get any satisfaction from a kill where you could achieve not because of your player quality but player/class/alt quantity ?

These are simple questions; and i know everyone will blame blizzard for these designs but really it is only PARAGON that uses stacking in such an extreme state. What i would have expected from raiders like you who are at the frontier of this gaming society is maybe take the challenge and actually kill this boss by your players ability not your classes. Blizzard might be the main actors turning this game into a shithole but you guys are certainly by playing their rules helping them out. You are defining 'being best in this game" as ability of leveling most alts and spending shit loads of time gearing them up not actually progressing.

as i said in the beginning of your post this is not a diss on your achievements they are well earned so please dont rage me paragon fans but really your achievements doesnt feel like world first Cthun or world first Illidan neither world first LK with 5 percent buff only and you know the reason.

good luck on your future superstacking endeavours

[nightindeuce]

I am not in Paragon, nor another bleeding edge guild, so I can't say this for certain - but I imagine they play for a two reasons, neither of which have to do with their class.

Primarily (I imagine) they play to get World Firsts. That is what is fun for them, playing the actual game probably isn't much fun anymore, but doing things before anyone else in the world is.

Also I have to believe they enjoy the people they play with, so regardless of what class the raid members are playing, it is still the same person behind the keyboard.

World Firsts have been, and will always be World Firsts. The race isn't to kill a boss 'honorably' i.e. with equal class composition. Imagine if someone posted on their website 'World First Kill of Nefarian with two Warlocks and no use of keybindings'. It would be ridiculous.

[Renovattio]

well if it is just to kill the boss then when a guild finds an exploit they should just use it and shouldnt get banned. In the end it is a way of killing the boss by using what blizzard couldnt think of or missed. using 11 druids has no difference from muting atramedes by using door bug or using saronites in LK fight. thats how i think atleast.

[nightindeuce]

Stacking a class is not exploiting. You have to be the only person in the world who thinks that.

EDIT - Blizzard decides what are exploits. Not the community. So if Blizzard bans someone then it is an exploit. If they don't, then it is not.

[arx]

I obviously can't speak for everyone, but I'll throw in my two cents.

I'll start by clearing up a popular misconception: we do not raid with multiple alts. Everyone has *one* alt they play in our official alt raid. This is for both gearing and stacking purposes. Every druid in the Nefarian kill was either the player's main or the single official alt. We do not have 50 players, nor do we have 2 to 20 alts per player.

People also seem to think that alt activities take up a lot of time. Consider that many players in world-level guilds probably played this game for over 10 hours a day during December. Leveling and gearing an alt to an acceptable level takes perhaps 20 hours. Also consider that many of those guilds also spent most available time raiding, so instead of alts, those 20 hours would have gone into wiping and killing bosses earlier. Either way, you invest those 20 hours into progression. The case is same with doing the alt raids - they're simply replacing "main" raid hours.

For me, it makes no difference whether I play my druid, my priest, or a class I've never played before, if it gets the job done. This game is first and foremost about progression and competition for me. To throw your question backwards: I do not get any pleasure from playing my main in a raid - I get pleasure from being there and killing bosses. I actually specifically enjoy the concept of transcending the traditional mindset of having a single character of a specific class and spec, although the practicalities can be annoying at times.

You seem to be of the opinion that tactics (boss tactics, execution) is somehow superior to strategy (i.e. gearing decisions, progression path, alts). If your goal is to compete, it makes no sense to leave either one underutilized. I will have all the respect for the first paladin-only Nefarian kill, but I'm playing a different game.

Unfortunately his web site seems to be down at the moment, but I fully recommend reading the Playing to Win articles by David Sirlin at http://www.sirlin.net. Maybe they'll shed some more light on the mindset.

[arx]

And on the topic of class stacking being an exploit or not, it is immediately obvious to anyone who has ever done a few tries on heroic Nefarian why druids are good on that fight. They work exactly as intended with the heroic mechanics, there isn't even any gray area in this matter. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you should go do a few pulls and educate yourself on why this is the case.

You could say that the boss design is not good because the mechanics favor some classes like that, and I'd agree, but you're simply making up your own rules if you classify raid optimization for non-bugging (but poorly designed) mechanics as an exploit.

[Hermanni]

The lack of sense of humour displayed by many people in these forums is quite amazing. Had anyone done anything similar on their kill, I would've clapped my hands together and laughed appreciatively.

I enjoy playing the game, and as much as I like my warlock I also like stabbing with my rogue, who also happens to be my only alt so far. You can easily check the headcount of our raiding members in the "Players" -tab or by stalking armory, the way many of us tend to name our alts isn't too cryptic (Mannistab says hi!)

And I must add that reading forums since yesterday only adds to the enjoyment. A priceless reward for running a few heroics for a couple of alts.

[DiamondTear]

Do you have any PLEASURE while playing you 3rd alt in a raid? OR do you get any satisfaction from a kill where you could achieve not because of your player quality but player/class/alt quantity ?

Why would playing an alt affect the pleasure I get from playing? Granted, I'd prefer playing my main paladin rather than my alt lock, but that's only because I enjoy the class and role more. It's also easier because I'm more familiar with it. Whether the character is a main or an alt doesn't matter.

I can definitely understand the attachment one could feel for a character when gearing it is a big part in the satisfaction you feel. Before I joined Paragon, gear was the reason I raided. Now it's just a tool and once a tier of content is cleared, I don't really care about it anymore.

I also think it's rather weird to think that being able to play multiple classes at a level where they can be utilized in progression means that the player quality is worse.

[Lebronjames]

I cannot believe it! Hermanni is getting cynical!
Completely agree with you though

[Renovattio]

I get your point and of course you are right when saying preparing an alt doesnt take much time and the advantage it provides is huge. I totally understand your ambition in raiding is about getting the world first no matter what too but i think i havent been clear on one point which is

by asking if your getting satisfied when your on your alt i didnt even think about gear; achievements or character development this is just a game and those can be earned anytime what i simply wondered was; arent you disappointed that you cannot progress without playing certain classes. I know druid is perfect for Nefarian encounter but well then in WOTLK i think every guilds ambition should have been leveling warlock alts. 11 warlocks used in LK fight would really trivialize the valkyr aspect of the fight but it would be a laughable kill dont you think?

so my point in satisfaction wasnt really class based and tangible it was more like loss of confidence for the ability of the player itself and focusing on the classes ability. And examples such as only paladin kill nefarian are just off topic really. When you are explaining a point; extreme, off the edge examples are really not helping. There is no way i am questioning your rosters ability to play the game here it would be very very funny if i did that since your raiding on a level i never did and even dared to so. I am not saying you are not skilled and bad players thats why your stacking; on the contrary my point is you are at the frontier and a very valuable group of players so why you are doing this.

with respect Reno

P.S DiamondTear please do not stop frapsing your aspect is perfect in paragon videos so congratz and please keep them coming.