The LFR discussion

[Aurumai]

So if I sell you a gun and you shoot someone it's my fault? Don't think so.

Your own analogy contradicts your point.

If you sell someone a gun, it's YOUR responsibility to make sure that the he has a clean background. It's YOUR responsibility to make sure you're not selling a gun to a criminal. Last I checked, supplying murderers with weapons is kind of illegal. Now tell me. Why would a criminal want a gun if he had no intention of killing anyone?

Like I said, any moron could tell you that exploits become popular, and therefore become a necessary step to ensure your spot in the world's top 10 list. In the event that everyone else uses an exploit and there are never any consequences, YOU would be screwed for not having jumped on the opportunity.

Scenario #1 means they MAY have lost the #1 spot but keep their honor and respect while scenario #2 means they definitely stay competitive but lose some respect.

I'm not sure if you understand. When everyone in a race makes use of an unfair advantage and you're the only one who hasn't, that's respectable. But in the (probable) case where Blizzard turns the other way and does nothing about it, then you're the only person who didn't take up on the extra advantage, and you get left behind. There's nothing dishonorable about ensuring that everyone in a race has equal chance. Since Blizzard probably won't make that happen, then your only choice is to do it yourself.

Although, didn't you guys know that Blizzard was going to crack down on it really soon anyway? Could have avoided the whole thing by just doing the right thing

Guilds with as much experience as Paragon know exactly how Blizzard deals with problems like this. Xenophics said herself that she hopes this can be a lesson learned. She didn't mean "I'm sorry for what I did, I hope I've learned my lesson". She likely meant more along the lines of "I'm not sorry for what I did because it's what I had to do. I hope Blizzard will realize the position we were put in, and will take something away from it."

There's a difference between exploits like this and using 100 druids to kill Nefarian.

There's no varying level of "fairness" from Exploit to exploit. A world-class guild isn't going to say "Well.. THIS exploit seems a LITTLE less fair than that last one... Let's not do it!"

Exploits are exploits.

[Dar]

Tbh this whole thing is merely ruining the entire tier of raiding from hardcore point of view. The top guilds are ineligible for the race, and atleast I can't truly considern some half-decent random guild that didn't exploit the best, given that all the relevant participants were out. I don't blame Paragon for what they did, but if I were to make their decisions, I would've played it safe and run with a lot of alts instead. Was it your intention to raise a shitstorm in order to (hopefully) gain Blizzard's attention? ;p

[DiamondTear]

If you look at the situation objectively, not exploiting would have guaranteed the wrong result. Either they would have had an advantage or they would have been banned. Either way the race wouldn't have been fair.

We'd rather guarantee an even footing than risk advantage for either guild.

First you say you exploited because you didn't want your competition to have an advantage, then you say you exploited due to some altruistic notion of protection of the integrity of the race by ensuring everyone would be on equal footing? Wow. Now that's some spin doctoring right there. Do you work in PR by chance? =P

You're reading too much into my post. I wasn't telling you why we did it. I'm only interested in discussing the ethics, so the key word in my post was "objectively". Of course we don't look at things objectively when deciding what to do.

I would have been quite pleased with getting the world first even with the other guild banned. But that possibility wasn't worth the risk of being at disadvantage.

[Burke]

Exploiting is bad mmk?

[ByebyeSponsors]

Like I said, any moron could tell you that exploits become popular, and therefore become a necessary step to ensure your spot in the world's top 10 list. In the event that everyone else uses an exploit and there are never any consequences, YOU would be screwed for not having jumped on the opportunity.

We acknowledge that using this unintended behavior, which was quite clearly a bug, to our gain, was wrong. The fact that others were using it as well is no justification for doing it ourselves. We apologize for doing it, and accept whatever consequences follow.

@Aurumai
Do you acknowledge as well? If its a "yes" than stop making excuses kid and lick your wounds.

[h4rr0d]

Seeing the replies from what seems to be Paragon members and the apology, it makes me wonder how honest that apology really is. Seems more like something sponsors demanded from guild leadership than honest apology from all the guild members.

@Aurumai: Seeing how competitive the top WoW progression is, one could easily compare it to professional sports. According to you it's fine to use doping because you can assume everyone is using it and you can easily obtain it, is that correct?

[Creasie]

Seeing the replies from what seems to be Paragon members and the apology, it makes me wonder how honest that apology really is. Seems more like something sponsors demanded from guild leadership than honest apology from all the guild members.

@Aurumai: Seeing how competitive the top WoW progression is, one could easily compare it to professional sports. According to you it's fine to use doping because you can assume everyone is using it and you can easily obtain it, is that correct?

Because you are reading it wrong. He is telling you WHY they did it. Not that they weren't wrong for doing it. There is a big difference. Yet people need to keep hammering on it. Are you so upset that you need to put them in a bad light or something?

To answer your question no it's not fine to use doping but if everyone uses it and no one takes actions against it then you have to use it to be the best. Having to use it to be the best doesn't make it right and that's exactly what they said in their apology.

Seriously people come here from, probably, MMO-C and make an account just to flame/troll them about this. Get over it. It didn't affect you at all, they got punished and they apologized. What else do you want?

[Mjollnir]

Seeing the replies from what seems to be Paragon members and the apology, it makes me wonder how honest that apology really is. Seems more like something sponsors demanded from guild leadership than honest apology from all the guild members.

@Aurumai: Seeing how competitive the top WoW progression is, one could easily compare it to professional sports. According to you it's fine to use doping because you can assume everyone is using it and you can easily obtain it, is that correct?

Quit worrying about the sincerity of it. They put it out. You don't know their intent behind it. This isn't another case of the community demanding an apology. They didn't have to do it at all.

[ircien]

With world of warcraft / blizzard entairtainement you will never be able to make the difference between clever use of game mechanics Or Bug abuse , It is just idiot .. just like Forscience the world first 85 , when he made a ticked about Mob tagging he received a message that it is a clever use of game mechanis and 3 hours later he got banned , blizzard just can't assume that players can bypass their game mechanichs , they made the bugs with their own hand , at least they assume it .. It is just my POV

(sorry for my english im a EU arab player^^)

and Goodluck paragon , A great guilde wich contains good player , gear will not stop them !

[arx]

Seeing the replies from what seems to be Paragon members and the apology, it makes me wonder how honest that apology really is. Seems more like something sponsors demanded from guild leadership than honest apology from all the guild members.

We're not going to shut our individual members up on their own forums, as long as the conversation stays civil. I also think that many people are confusing whether people are talking ethics or game theory. The ethical right answer is different from the optimal right answer. I'm left with the impression that most people agree it was the wrong thing to do, but the right thing to do. Less or more confused?