The LFR discussion

[Canafly]

Does anyone know any person who always applies to rules? Especially if there is almost never any punishment for breaking those?
Do you never intentionally speed, when you see no police? Walking over the street on red light is out of question?
I would have done the same as paragon, especially if I consider the commitment they put in the game and the experience they had so far. And I doubt that there are many out there who wouldnt.

"Fair" means that everyone has the same start, the same resources and the same finish. This game has never been fair in the first place. And doing as other guilds to benefit slightly is exactly what moves closer to fair.
It is like moving a company to china. If your competitor does it, you have very slim chances to stay competitive by not doing it. But you will have to fire local people if you do it - If your morals are hindering you, your company will not work for a very long time.

And just to explain the degree of commitment. If you are striving to be #1 in any area, you always have to use at the very least methods your direct competitors are using. It's great from moral terms, that vodka and blood legion are not using this bug. But that is one reason, why the chance seeing them on world rank 1 is very slim.

But it is also fine that paragon, method and others got their ban. Next time the incentive to abuse game mechanics will be very low. This is a great move, however blaming guilds for doing things they always did, is stupid. If Blizzard keeps punishment this way, this problem will disappear anyway.

[Opustjej]

Was looking forward to the race :/ Really hope they tune DW insanely hard so top EU guilds have a chance on world first.

@ Paragon; What I cant figure out is why you didnt do this the legit way. Just guessing here but I imagine you ran atleast five normal runs (probabaly more). That alongside a boosted LFR run for every raid member would grant atleast 90% of the gear obtainable, if not more. Think Xeno mentioned somewhere that this was your original plan anyways. Why divert from it?

I understand why you did as you did, feeling forced to do it to keep up, but did you really think things through before you decided to exploit? It cant be many items you would have missed out on if you just had done it the legit way? But I guess its those small things that make you the best guild out there. Imo I think you guys have such an edge that you could have done it legit and probably dominate this tier aswell. The risk vs award ratio for exploiting doesnt seem very thought through, but again just my opinion.

The only reason I can see for you going all out on exploiting must be the fear of Blizzard hotfixing it and not reprimanding your worst opponents? In our guild for instance we knew about the exploit but decided to wait until monday and tuesday, just in case things turned out the way they did.

Anyways, I think I can understand the impact of this on all your members. I imagine alot of you spending hard earned vaccation next week, now for no reason.

I hope you can keep things togheter and come back strong in a week. I mean after all the real threats to world first recieved the same ban so the odds for you guys taking world first must be pretty low =)

[Failadin]

I logged in 30 minutes ago to unequip some items from my character for general amusement. Great success.

As another poster stated, that comment their is what makes this "juicy" to the general WoW community. Not needling or trolling but can anyone in Paragon really say that comment melds with the apology? That comment to me, and by the looks of it others, says "I am above you, I have no fear of repercussions suck it losers ha"


That said, you know it, and most if not all know you're one of the if not the best players in the world. I know and understand that if Michael Phelps is wearing aerodynamic swim trunks that shave .004 seconds off a lap, you damn well better wear them as well if you intend on winning. That doesn't excuse what happened by you or the other top guilds, or anyone for that matter. But it is reasonable for me to understand, as it should be for anyone if they look at it realistically. The problem still lies in Hermannis comment. That comment takes a lot of "we only did it to stay competitive" goodwill and spits on it, sadly. Summary, his comment and actions made your entire guild look really bad.

[DiamondTear]

It's mildly amusing considering that verbal lashing you gave other exploiters in the past before you were the top guild in the world.

You are confusing us with someone else. You didn't even know we existed before we were the top guild.

[Rayvik]

And just to explain the degree of commitment. If you are striving to be #1 in any area, you always have to use at the very least methods your direct competitors are using.

Two words: Albert Pujols.

(I've tried to avoid culture-centric examples to support my arguments to this point as I'm cognizant that this forum is hosted by an EU guild, so I apologize if you're not familiar enough with American baseball to get the relevance.)

When all of his competitors were doping, Albert came out and said he's good enough that he doesn't need steroids to be competitive. What happened? He's wearing a World Series ring.

If you're good enough and dedicated enough (which clearly Paragon members are), you don't need to ALWAYS stoop to the level of your competition to beat them.

[Hermanni]

I logged in 30 minutes ago to unequip some items from my character for general amusement. Great success.

As another poster stated, that comment their is what makes this "juicy" to the general WoW community. Not needling or trolling but can anyone in Paragon really say that comment melds with the apology? That comment to me, and by the looks of it others, says "I am above you, I have no fear of repercussions suck it losers ha"


That said, you know it, and most if not all know you're one of the if not the best players in the world. I know and understand that if Michael Phelps is wearing aerodynamic swim trunks that shave .004 seconds off a lap, you damn well better wear them as well if you intend on winning. That doesn't excuse what happened by you or the other top guilds, or anyone for that matter. But it is reasonable for me to understand, as it should be for anyone if they look at it realistically. The problem still lies in Hermannis comment. That comment takes a lot of "we only did it to stay competitive" goodwill and spits on it, sadly. Summary, his comment and actions made your entire guild look really bad.

Having a sense of humor helps.

[Canafly]

Yeah and what exactly were the chances for him to win the championship?
Do you like other examples? How about Maradona, who is explicitly famous for cheating, and still is considered one of the best soccer players ever. He was awarded as the best soccer player of the century (together with Pele) and nobody cares about his doping and drug scndals, his often immoral playing methods.
For any statement you can find examples, but the team with the highest advantage most likely wins. It is also a fact that the presidental candidate with the highest campaign speding will most likely win.

[Azamy]

[..snip..]

Having a sense of humor helps.

I think it was funny... same for the fake news Karfagen (sp?) released and now quite fittingly edited. ;)

[naPS]

A child needs hard and fast rules to make sensible decisions. Adults can use their intelligence and experience to weigh the risk/reward of their actions.

Right and Wrong are about the most hard and fast rules out there. You guys obviously knew the difference if you were able to weigh risk vs. reward, so you were obviously thinking as adults. You just weren't acting like them.

I often read about kids getting run over while crossing the street because the driver of the car makes a mistake and runs a red light. Still, we teach our kids to always wait for the green light, because we can't expect them to check whether it's safe to cross the street. I, however, am much more safer crossing the street after checking if any cars could run me over, regardless of whether the light is red or green for me.

See! That's a very informed and educated way of crossing the street. You're not crossing the street because everyone else is doing it and they'll get across the street first, you're making the decision to cross the street because you know it most likely won't get you in trouble at that time. Again, thinking like an adult here, and not just some reactionary child.

Playing by some moral code is taking the easy way out to avoid thinking or taking responsibility. It doesn't always lead to the best result.

But it 100% of the time doesn't lead to the wrong result. Which was the point of my second post. Sure, you could weigh the risk / reward of your action, but in the end, you're leaving your fate in the hands of someone else... which goes completely contradictory to the example you gave about crossing the street.

[naPS]

Justice always wins? That's only true in Hollywood movies. In real life doing the wrong thing might be best for you.

You also speak of experience. We have that. We made a ticked asking if we can kite Magmaw adds out of its room. Blizzard said we can't. Others did and got the world first. Therefore, in our experience, we couldn't count on Blizzard.

Justice might not win 100% of the time (yay for extreme examples in forums!) - but for the most part, people get what's coming to them. It may not happen immediately, and it possibly may never happen - but more often than not, it does. Just a question - why would you ticket the Magmaw adds thing, and not the LFR thing? Most likely you guys panicked in seeing some other guild doing this, and figured you HAD to cheat to catch up, instead of doing the rational thing and choosing to maintain your integrity and status within the community.

Since we had confirmed that our only competitor had used this exploit before we even considered it, using it was the only chance for a fair race. We're not racing against those US guilds that didn't exploit. What they do doesn't matter when it comes to the race. What matters is what EU guilds do and we already knew what they did, which made the decision a foregone conclusion.

Apparently you just don't understand what my previous posts were stating. Well, actually I knew you didn't understand before I even posted them, because you guys utilized the exploit. You're never going to justify this to folks with even half a brain, so don't even try. You fucked up, plain and simple. Don't blame it on someone else.

We can't afford to consider what the community thinks, either. A large part of it thinks we exploited on Nefarian, even though we played 100 % by the rules. Trying the please the community is impossible as long as you are in the top 5.

Wow. Just wow. If you don't read that back to yourself and see that you sound like a complete jackass with that statement, you've got issues.