The LFR discussion

[ByebyeSponsors]

they did what they did because they felt like it was what was necessary to stay competitive in the race and that they are ashamed of what they did.

1. So glory before principles?
2. They stole bread from other guilds (i.e. Sponsors) while cheating and using exploits
3. They had a choice, either play it fair and have trust in Justice & dignity or cheat and try to steal the victory. Fill in what their choices were.

Karma is a bitch.

[Atalyx]

@naPS

I agree with you that a six year old child should be able to tell you this answer, but at the same time, the child has to learn it from somewhere. As I mentioned in an earlier post, and has been mentioned by Blues several times, Blizzard has a very inconsistent record with when they ban and when they don't ban, and if those bans are severe enough. Clearly, they are not. It's not that the people haven't learned their lesson, so to speak, but rather they are not concerned about the result because in the end it barely affects them.

Yes, Paragon will have a hint of shadiness behind their names for a little while now, but so will many of the other guilds. But just as always, they'll upload a kill video, and, as you said, their strategy will be amazing and their execution will be flawless.

This next segment is just a question. Are what Ensidia and what Paragon did comparable? Before answering, think about it. Ensidia did something to rig their kill, giving them a very unfair advantage. Paragon did something to try to keep up with the competition. I agree that it was wrong, that's not my point, my point is are the two indiscretions comparable? When all is said and done, Paragon will most likely miss out on a week of raiding and get their gear reset to their Heroic Firelands gear. As will all the other guilds who participated. Starting the race on mostly fair grounds once again.

Let haters hate and trollers troll. If that's what makes them happy. The community will have to decide if they want to look past an indiscretion or not.

[ByebyeSponsors]

Let haters hate and trollers troll. If that's what makes them happy. The community will have to decide if they want to look past an indiscretion or not.

I am the community, and I lost my faith and respect for Paragon. I truly believed it was one of the ´clean´ guilds who go to the top without cheating or using any exploits. Ensidia used to be my favorite guild but ever since the famous Engineering bomb exploit at ICC/LK on the valkir´s I turned off from them and started to like paragon. Again, i truly believed they were a honest guild, but seemingly they have been just as equally exploited their way up to the top.

[Atalyx]

I am the community, and I lost my faith and respect for Paragon

You're but one member of a much larger community. And I'm sorry to hear you've lost faith and respect, but that is your own decision. I wish you best of luck with whomever you choose to follow next, and when they eventually (as is inevitable) disappoint you too, I wish you luck with whomever is next on your list.

[naPS]

@naPS

I agree with you that a six year old child should be able to tell you this answer, but at the same time, the child has to learn it from somewhere. As I mentioned in an earlier post, and has been mentioned by Blues several times, Blizzard has a very inconsistent record with when they ban and when they don't ban, and if those bans are severe enough. Clearly, they are not. It's not that the people haven't learned their lesson, so to speak, but rather they are not concerned about the result because in the end it barely affects them.

I completely agree. Inconsistent application of the rules for anyone involved makes everyone feel lame. It happens all the time. Think about how many people hate Lindsey Lohan now because she is a complete clown and can't stay out of trouble but only gets a day or two in jail, while we all know someone who's been hammered far worse than that for doing far less than she has. That's what pisses people off - the inequality.

But at the same time, a smart person won't leave the choice of getting hammered or not in someone else's hands. Because they know that maybe this time the pendulum of inequality will swing in their favor, but at some point it's going to swing back at far greater speed than it did the first time. Why chance getting hit by it at all?

This next segment is just a question. Are what Ensidia and what Paragon did comparable? Before answering, think about it. Ensidia did something to rig their kill, giving them a very unfair advantage. Paragon did something to try to keep up with the competition. I agree that it was wrong, that's not my point, my point is are the two indiscretions comparable? When all is said and done, Paragon will most likely miss out on a week of raiding and get their gear reset to their Heroic Firelands gear. As will all the other guilds who participated. Starting the race on mostly fair grounds once again.

Oh, they're comparable. I think they are far from equal though. In the same vein as theft and murder are comparable because they are both against the law, although one is far worse than the other. The only thing I would say to what Ensidia did (on LK at least) was that they could just as easily claim that they heard that everyone else was doing it, so they had to too. And then that would put them on the exact same footing as all the guilds claiming they only exploited LFR because they saw everyone else doing it. And while that isn't exactly the case here, since I think Ensidia's thing is probably slightly worse, mainly because they did, in fact, try to hide it, in the end it's really not all that much different.

Let haters hate and trollers troll. If that's what makes them happy. The community will have to decide if they want to look past an indiscretion or not.

Yeah, and in the end, I think they will. I'm just bummed that it happened though, because I really do look up to Paragon as being the best at what they do, and I still believe they are regardless of what happened here. I just know that now whenever I talk to someone else about it, it will inevitably lead to a conversation about them exploiting, and that's a bummer, because it totally diminishes what they've accomplished.

[Atalyx]

Oh, they're comparable. I think they are far from equal though. In the same vein as theft and murder are comparable because they are both against the law, although one is far worse than the other. The only thing I would say to what Ensidia did (on LK at least) was that they could just as easily claim that they heard that everyone else was doing it, so they had to too. And then that would put them on the exact same footing as all the guilds claiming they only exploited LFR because they saw everyone else doing it. And while that isn't exactly the case here, since I think Ensidia's thing is probably slightly worse, mainly because they did, in fact, try to hide it, in the end it's really not all that much different.

This was exactly what I was getting at. Just one last thing to add. I may be mistaken, and if I am I welcome the correction, but as Ensidia was vying for the world first kill of LK at the time, I find it a little difficult to see how they could claim everybody else was doing it. I do, however, see and understand your argument.

Yeah, and in the end, I think they will. I'm just bummed that it happened though, because I really do look up to Paragon as being the best at what they do, and I still believe they are regardless of what happened here. I just know that now whenever I talk to someone else about it, it will inevitably lead to a conversation about them exploiting, and that's a bummer, because it totally diminishes what they've accomplished.

I also have to admit I'm rather bummed, I just hate to see people flaming Paragon and their members, I hate to see anybody flaming anybody for that matter. It really isn't necessary.

I don't necessarily agree that it diminishes everything they have accomplished over the years, or even in this tier, to be honest. As I've made clear, I still feel like we're going to see them on top still, and this time it will be by beating out other people who got the week head start. Yeah, this is an awful way to look at it, but form a pure 'lets forget why they had a week delay on pull starts' point of view, coming from behind to get the world first would be rather impressive, would it not?

Unless I'm mistaken, I think we're getting at the same point in the end. We're both disappointed, and would've liked to see it turn out differently. I think everybody is disappointed. Instead of flaming, trolling and hating; all Paragon needs to know is that we are disappointed, and if they can still count on our support or not. ByebyeSponsers has made it clear he will be leaving Paragon's fan base, this is a fine decision, as it was his own. I, however, will be sticking on board, for many reasons, one of which being hearing their excited Finnish chatter at the end of videos! I've always felt there was something different about them, from reading their guides and their posts and their interactions with the community. I am not going to let this one indiscretion ruin my perception of them overall.

[Mjollnir]

Paragon can still pull it off.

[Dion]

http://media.mmo-champion.com/images/ne ... oitBan.png

Did this hit Paragon or did they recieve smaller bans or no bans at all? Also, what happened to gear? Were they removed or did those stay?

Hopefully same kinda treatment is offered for all high end raiding guilds instead of favoritism. (Someone claimed to have 3 day ban) Will this affect your race?

[Sien]

These bans are pretty awful for all competitive guilds involved. Had the multitude been just 3 days or 8 days, I would believe the punishment to be less harsh. However with the variable duration, this really has rocked the boat for any raiders and their guilds aiming to hit world first kills as you can barely plan around this times.

[Nicolai S]

this chat in here seems very targeted At paragon because theyre are considered the #1 guild, theyre using an exploit im sure ( every1 ) that knew about it used atleast until it became clear that they would receive penalties for it! sure u can sit in here and call it childish but fact of the matter is that u aint compettetive enough to be one of the top guilds if u aint rdy to do what it takes to be ahead of everything else ( showed by the fact that pretty mutch any guild that has a chance to ever come within top 20 used the exploit ) this is my fina´l comment on the matter, if i had been in the same position i had used the exploit myself aswell, if ur aiming to be #1 u gotta do what it takes!