The LFR discussion

[Hermanni]

My biggest question and concern is would you or any guild have said anything had it not been discovered?
I have grave doubts that anyone would have confessed until discovered and that has truly been the most disappointing part of this event. Frankly, I'm shocked that anyone thought it would remained undiscovered as this was not a subtle exploit at all.

I don't know why people assume we're all "busted" about this. In the past few months we've done tiny things like changed our guild or guild name or had few people switching servers and all of them have spawned forum threads within a day. Nothing we do that shows up in armory feeds goes unnoticed. We knew everyone would know about it instantly before we did it and it didn't affect our decision making.

Funnily enough, the exploit was being used since Tuesday by a lot of people, but myself and most of the guild only heard about it when we had started our first LFR raid on Thursday evening, and the next morning after that raid all hell had broken loose.

In the end, the advantage gained from exploiting is small. We could have done LFR 20 times the legitimate way (as we originally had planned to) and gotten slightly less tier pieces than by exploiting but most of the remaining pieces would have been found in normal mode clears. I'd approximate the benefit of exploiting is something like a dozen or less items over the entire guild, mostly 384 tier pieces worn over 391 or 397 items to complete set bonuses. The fact that we started running LFR late even hurt us a bit, as few people didn't really have time to get their loot on thursday before we stopped raiding, I personally only got one tier piece out of LFR and that piece got replaced by loot I got from normal mode.

[Sveitman]

Can I say how disappointed I am in all the guilds that took advantage of the flaw?

I have loved watching the top guilds duke it out for world firsts but now I really don't care who gets the honor this time. The anticipation has diminished and seems pointless because there is now doubt and it will linger throughout this tier. I appreciate that your guild has admitted and willing to accept the consequences of those actions.

My biggest question and concern is would you or any guild have said anything had it not been discovered?
I have grave doubts that anyone would have confessed until discovered and that has truly been the most disappointing part of this event. Frankly, I'm shocked that anyone thought it would remained undiscovered as this was not a subtle exploit at all.

In the end, I have never doubted the abilities and skills of these players far exceed many of the regular raiders. However, the decisions made to abuse a flaw in the system to gain a competitive edge have severe reprecussions. These actions have planted a seed of distrust and doubt causing many of us to wonder if these top guilds cheated or earned that first world kill. I would like to think earned but you and others just made it much more difficult.

This is how it's always been. Some bugs slip through, some big some small, and all the top guilds are undirectly forced to use it since not doing so will leave them with a disadvantage in the race. Just look at Atramedes.

What needs to happen here is Blizzard being more firm and absolutely more reliable in the bans. Even a 3-5 day ban guaranteed for any bug would nigh on wipe them out since even if using one might give you a world first Shannox you'd be far behind in the real race.

You can't really tell these sort of competetive guilds to ignore a clear advantage however shady it is because in the end what drives them is being number one - and that's also what people remember the most.

tl:ld; Leap of faiths doesn't happen in reality and it's going to come down to how Blizzard choses to handle this. I'm sure a lot of members of these types of guilds would like a bug- and exploitfree race but with Blizzard's current policy it's just not going to happen.

[Darg8]

I agree that Blizzard certainly has a responsibility to be more consistent in the enforcement of ToS - especially in big stake races as these. As a consumer I expect them to be more diligent.

On the flip side is that each person and guild has a choice and sometimes those choices have a negative or positive impact (sometimes both). Everyone who participated at the beginning or the end with little to no advantage still engaged in an activity they knew was not in accordance with ToS. The degree that each person benefits or the importance of the rewards does not diminished the "wrongness" of the act.

And I certainly don't wish to single out Paragon as the "evil" doers in this event - remember that I truly do respect each guild's talent and drive to be the best. I'm just saddened that in this that choices "everyone" made was poor. Perhaps the reason I'm posting on Paragon's site is because I truly respected and expected more of your guild and therefore the disappointment is even greater.

[Hermanni]

The degree that each person benefits or the importance of the rewards does not diminished the "wrongness" of the act.

No, if you don't want to drop the preacher act that everyone's playing around the forums. In reality there's a world of difference between getting a few extra items and Dark Simulacruming Sinestra even both qualify as "wrongs."

[Mjollnir]

I agree that Blizzard certainly has a responsibility to be more consistent in the enforcement of ToS - especially in big stake races as these. As a consumer I expect them to be more diligent.

On the flip side is that each person and guild has a choice and sometimes those choices have a negative or positive impact (sometimes both). Everyone who participated at the beginning or the end with little to no advantage still engaged in an activity they knew was not in accordance with ToS. The degree that each person benefits or the importance of the rewards does not diminished the "wrongness" of the act.

And I certainly don't wish to single out Paragon as the "evil" doers in this event - remember that I truly do respect each guild's talent and drive to be the best. I'm just saddened that in this that choices "everyone" made was poor. Perhaps the reason I'm posting on Paragon's site is because I truly respected and expected more of your guild and therefore the disappointment is even greater.

As a consumer, you don't worry about them being diligent. You worry about playing the game. Nothing none of these guys did affects you in the least. You pay 15$ a month. That's it. White knighting and gross exaggeration is the nature of people over the internet. Nothing they did was wrong. Did people cry a shitstorm when nobody got banned for the Atramedes exploit? No. They didn't. But yeah. Quit white knighting. You're looking foolish.

[xenophics]

"Nothing they did was wrong."

Well, I might be old fashioned but I still respect the concepts of right and wrong. I also think that what happened during this week at least wasn't right.

I think people have the right to be upset, but I agree some have exaggerated the whole thing "a bit". So please try and write in a respectful manner. I also think it's good to let people speak out what they think (as long as it's not misinformed, trolling, or outright just flaming), that way we can hopefully get the bad blood out. As some guy on these forums already said, this hurt the reputation of the community, the race, and our guild a lot. Giving people the freedom to be mad is the least we can do. But that's just my opinion.

[Atalyx]

Doesn't it all come back to what Xeno, and other members, have already said a few times? They openly admit to doing something wrong, now it's up to Blizzard to decide how to respond to their decision. Nobody writing or preaching in this forum is going to get anything changed, Paragon has already apologized and said they are ready to take any punishment that is going to be dished out.

But that's the issue: is anything coming?

Blizzard has always had an inconsistent history with bans focused around this top end content. Sorta like a child who does something wrong, the top end raiders know they did something wrong, but the parent (Blizzard) is doing nothing to show their displeasure, so why should they change their course of action? Then Blizzard comes out of nowhere to punish Ensidia last year, and it's a huge deal because it was unexpected.

So, it is my belief, that the "calling out" of these players needs to stop. It happened, it's over, and there's nothing that can be done about it. They were just playing a game, just as they have for the past years. If you really want to preach to somebody, move the preaching about morality and ethics and punishment to Blizzard, they have to make the change.

[arx]

I renamed the topic to something more appropriate, since there's lots of misinformation about banning flying around.

[arx]

Since someone is bound to ask: sorry, we don't know. We haven't received any email regarding temporarily suspensions.

[keiranthil]

8 day suspensions + forum privileges stripped + loot taken away apparently for U.S servers