The 10-man vs 25-man debate

[Tyrannon]

What about Guilds that aren´t hardcore? A 10man encounter tuned for a perfect composition would make it impossible to kill the final boss for Normal-heroic-10man guilds at all. My 10man guild killed 13/13 two months ago. We weren´t the fastest, but we got it. If the encounter would have been tuned for a perfect composition, theres no way we would have that Progress, since our lineup is far from optimal. Hell its hard enough to get 12 guys good enough for hardmodes on our realm.
Same goes for 25man guilds. Atleast you should be able to kill it without the best Lineup.

My point is: Encounter can´t/shouldn´t be tuned for Best-in-case Lineup.

That sucks for First-Kill-Progressguilds, but thats how it works.
And to be honest, Paragon is still the ONLY guild with a kill. We are faaaaar away from any "Ez-mode"-comments

[Sun_Tzu]

What about Guilds that aren´t hardcore? A 10man encounter tuned for a perfect composition would make it impossible to kill the final boss for Normal-heroic-10man guilds at all. My 10man guild killed 13/13 two months ago. We weren´t the fastest, but we got it. If the encounter would have been tuned for a perfect composition, theres no way we would have that Progress, since our lineup is far from optimal. Hell its hard enough to get 12 guys good enough for hardmodes on our realm.
Same goes for 25man guilds. Atleast you should be able to kill it without the best Lineup.

This is hardly of any real concern to the more casual guilds. Content is always being nerfed after the fact, and indeed those nerfs allowed your guild as well to reach 13/13 last tier. I don't see this changing any time soon.

[prossu]

What about Guilds that aren´t hardcore? A 10man encounter tuned for a perfect composition would make it impossible to kill the final boss for Normal-heroic-10man guilds at all. My 10man guild killed 13/13 two months ago. We weren´t the fastest, but we got it. If the encounter would have been tuned for a perfect composition, theres no way we would have that Progress, since our lineup is far from optimal. Hell its hard enough to get 12 guys good enough for hardmodes on our realm.
Same goes for 25man guilds. Atleast you should be able to kill it without the best Lineup.

This is hardly of any real concern to the more casual guilds. Content is always being nerfed after the fact, and indeed those nerfs allowed your guild as well to reach 13/13 last tier. I don't see this changing any time soon.

Also there's a big difference between perfect composition kill in T11 gear and couple new pieces and slack composition with more or less full T12 gear. No one's demanding that you should always be able to kill it only with an optimal setup, but at the point we are currently in T12, where only the real top guilds are trying to kill 7/7, requiring an optimal setup in suboptimal gear is not too much to ask. When you get more gear in couple weeks, the suboptimal groups start to get kills aswell.

[Nuara]

I won't say 10man is easier or more difficult than 25man, because I believe you are the only ones who can make such statements at the moment. Still, there are some factors to consider in order to "purify" this comparison; some of these things were already named in this thread. Please note that I don't know how things are in your guild nor do I assume anything. This is just my opinion on the topic.

First of all, the gear question. Imo, gearing up 10 people out of 25 is simply easier than if you raided only 10mans. With just 2 items per kill, how are the chances you get exactly that piece of item? It gets frustrating beyond reason, clearing raids week after week and disenchanting stuff while you just pray for one item to drop. ^^ Anyway, it seems 25mans don't have this problem, or at least it's not as acute as in a 10man raid. It seems that 25mans just gear up more quickly, or have at least a head start.
Now I'd like to ask you, what was your average item level in your 25man setup? Was it as good as in your 10man Ragnaros kill? Because if not, it might be one of the reasons you found it so much more easy to handle.

Your experience is the main reason the 10man kill came about so quickly, but it's not surprising. You have put a LOT of effort into that kill, and you've really earned this world first (congratulations, btw ;)). But then, how can any guild that didn't spend hours and hours there find it easy? After 500+ wipes on a boss it simply gets... boring. After you know everything there is about the fight, there just isn't much challenge left.

10mans are considered to be less forgiving to mistakes. I haven't raided 25mans for a long time now, so I can't confirm this. What I know about 10mans is: one mistake -> battle ress, two mistakes -> wipe. In 25mans, there is just more flexibility, and one or two fails can still be tolerated, if the rest can cover for it. As for your guild, you have more than 25 top raiders, and I'm sure you took the best of them along for your 10man kill. In most raids there are weaker links, and I just don't think you took those into the 10man group, and even your weaker links must be pretty good players, or your 25man kill wouldn't have been possible in the first place. Now, assuming you had your Crème de la Crème with you, is it surprising you found it so much less challenging? Both 10 and 25man fights are made in consideration of some mistakes being made, and having a larger raid pool to choose from you had the possibility to minimize the chances of any mistakes happening.

Reading the previous posts I noticed that some people took offense at your guide. Personally, I think it is not the fact you found the 10man encounter so much easier than 25man, that offends some, but the way you tell your tale. Saying the boss should get some more hp, that adds are "made of paper" or that one could have managed the boss with 8 players instead of 10, surely feels unfair to those who are working really hard to get the bosses down. Somehow, it feels like you're saying that everyone who hasn't killed the bosses by now is just too stupid for raiding, because they are easy and even boring. I don't think it was your intention, but it did sound a bit arrogant to me. ^^ But, having only seen two bosses on heroic difficulty, I can't really argue with you about how difficult the bosses are. I'd like to read some comments from those who have seen more heroic bosses in a 10man group about how the fights felt to them.

[Sun_Tzu]

Nuara....just...read before posting. Every question you pose has already been answered, every argument disposed with. If you've got a problem with the truth, I suggest you stick your head in the sand and go about your day. It will not change the facts of the matter, but at least you won't have to deal with them; nor us with you.

<I have no affiliation with Paragon, don't accuse them for my rude behaviour.>

[Nuara]

Hmm... did I say I had a problem with anything? I just offered my opinion on the matter, and yes, I know some of the arguments I used appeared in this thread already. My goal was merely to put together the things that might (only might) explain why the gap between 10man and 25man diffuculty seems to be so huge. And I really read all the posts before posting myself, so should I have missed something that already answered some questions I posted, then I'm sorry. Still can't see how I deserved such a rude answer. :/

[Tyrannon]

All i´m saying is, that Blizzard isn´t balancing with Progressionraiding in mind. Thus the difference in DPS Requirements.

[DiamondTear]

These same classes were not at all disadvantaged on the two next-hardest encounters. Even a Shaman would have been brought(enhancement), for bloodlust as a replacement for the arcane mage, but Paragon hasn't really had Enhancement Shaman main for a while.

Arcane Tactics.

What about Guilds that aren´t hardcore? A 10man encounter tuned for a perfect composition would make it impossible to kill the final boss for Normal-heroic-10man guilds at all.

Casual guilds will, as usual, kill them after they've been nerfed. It's unlikely that Blizzard will intentionally tune 10 mans like this, though.

[Sun_Tzu]

These same classes were not at all disadvantaged on the two next-hardest encounters. Even a Shaman would have been brought(enhancement), for bloodlust as a replacement for the arcane mage, but Paragon hasn't really had Enhancement Shaman main for a while.

Arcane Tactics.

Retridin. Although I suppose end result would have been little better than just having the mage in. This was however based on something I'd been told, that an Enhancement Shaman might have been considered had there actually been the option to bring one.

[zYN]

snip

Sigh. Every single point you try to make has been refuted. Not only did we _not_ gear up just 10 players, we didn't even have the highest ilvl out of the guilds racing for 10-man heroic Ragnaros. You're also ignoring the fact that you can 9-man all of the last 3 bosses in the 10-man. With Majordomo, it's doable even with 8 people.

I feel like just deleting your posts. You do not bring anything new to the discussion that wouldn't already have been addressed.