Paragon and Heroic 10 man Rag - Not comparable

[Tyrannon]

in that case... it is how it is xD. 10man is lucky ^^

[Diahi]

devo aura is 3% physical damage? really? our tank went from getting hit from 100 to 70k in heroic magmaw when we turned devo aura on, feel free to try it out yourself

piercing shots? huge part of hunters dps as mm, bleed damage

and as you said, warrior last stand is on cd with his, making paladin raid wall significantly better

- I'm not sure if you're being serious or not with the devo aura stuff. Sounds like a pretty bad troll.
- Your hunter would obviously be playing survival as he's the only source for windfury, thus he does not have piercing shots. I left this out earlier as I thought you'd know this stuff.
- Paladin wall is better, but in no way a gamebreaker. This also has no effect on raid dps which is where 10 man is significantly easier.

[Vlaidlol]

im not trolling, I was surprised as well since its only 4k armor and the tooltip probably goes for around 3 or 4% reduced physical damage, but its not like that

and there you go, hunter cant go mm which is a better spec for most fights cause he has to go surv

[Diahi]

So in conclusion, you have to have 1 player play a supposedly inferior spec (lets say a maximum of 3k single target dps less, even though for a good number of fights survival is just as viable as mm). Everyone else in your raid can pretty much play the current top dps spec while your raid has all the necessary raid buffs and debuffs (except mangle, make that 300 dps for 1% from the rogue) that affect raid dps.

I recall that according to you this is a significant number and accounts for the loose dps requirements in 10 man. 3300 raid dps. Hell, if the numbers were even close to something like 10k I'd say you have a point. Now, however, I'm not impressed.

[Kruf]

So in conclusion, you have to have 1 player play a supposedly inferior spec (lets say a maximum of 3k single target dps less, even though for a good number of fights survival is just as viable as mm).

More like 2k less in gear similar to mine, or possibly even less if you optimize properly for SV.

[Dlad]

Perhaps if you were serious about raiding and were missing some critical buffs you'd think about someone possibly changing their class. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that a 10 man guild is able to get the hardest bosses down fast with just 10 characters.

It is usually around 13 to 15 chars. No-one in their mind would keep 20 or more people in guild when your target raid size is 10. Also, in normal guilds, people play on mains. Playing on main alone already takes more than enough time, even when bosses are on farm. Spending as much time to gear up alts for main raids is just not an option in 90% cases. Granted, 5-7 of those 13 might be up for it... other just don't have time. Just not enough time. Family, late workshifts, anything... Just not enough. Simple as that, nothing to even argue about here.

Why is it that our raid group always manages to pull the same numbers in 10s setups when doing DPS? Yet the fights feel like we're having Bloodlust 24/7 because of the tuning. Everything just melts so fast.

Because most, and I mean it, most of the 10man guilds, don't have 50+ geared chars like you do, to chose a setup from.

Problem is, you spoke from your perspective, but you really spoke about everyone. With your guild roster, you can always get
a perfect setup.

Imagine a 10-man guild, who don't have a DK or retri, whos enhancement shaman usually plays resto OS because some other healer is busy this evening, who only have 1 mage, 1 hunter, 1 rogue, 1 warrior and 1 warlock in whole roster, and they are quite often not available. Instead, they have few paladins (without retri OS), priests, druids and shamans.

How about that setup:
prot paladin
bear druid
disc priest
resto druid
holy paladin
rogue
warrior
shadow priest
boomkin
warlock

What, no hero? Well mage, hunter and shamans just aren't here this evening. Deal with it.
It is reality. You can't even argue with it... it's the way things are, just because they are.
That guild is realm-first too, even against the odds. Just out of world top 100 though.

You speak about everyone. But look at the like top 1000 10man guilds. Hell, even just top 500. You spoke about them too, not only about yourself or top 10.

And you spoke wrong. Just consider the reality, not the theorycrafting example. Or state clearly, that whatever you say, applies to just guilds like yours.

[Kruf]

Playing on main alone already takes more than enough time, even when bosses are on farm. Spending as much time to gear up alts for main raids is just not an option in 90% cases. Granted, 5-7 of those 13 might be up for it... other just don't have time. Just not enough time. Family, late workshifts, anything... Just not enough. Simple as that, nothing to even argue about here.

And how is this any different in 25man? It isn't. This is a completely moot point.

Imagine a 10-man guild, who don't have a DK or retri, whos enhancement shaman usually plays resto OS because some other healer is busy this evening, who only have 1 mage, 1 hunter, 1 rogue, 1 warrior and 1 warlock in whole roster, and they are quite often not available. Instead, they have few paladins (without retri OS), priests, druids and shamans.

Then that 10man guild is playing under arbitrary constraints not imposed by the game. Of couse you can make bosses harder by not using all the tools available, but that does not change the absolute difficulty of the boss when all tools are used. And that's what we care and talk about.

You speak about everyone. But look at the like top 1000 10man guilds. Hell, even just top 500. You spoke about them too, not only about yourself or top 10.

Again, we don't talk about difficulty given arbitrary constraints not imposed by the game. If there's no truly hardcore 10man guild, well, too bad, but that's because people choose not to do that, not because the game doesn't allow it.

Also, let me quote what we actually said about the difficulty:

If we were really playing 10-man, we *would* have a close to optimal setup. Even right now, scaled down from 25 to 10, we would have about 14 players and 30-ish fully raid-capable characters. The difficulty and tuning we're concerned about is for that scenario, not for the level where you're simply enjoying the game with the hand you've been dealt. You should always keep this in mind when reading feedback from top guilds, whether they are playing 25s or 10s. The game is very likely quite different for you and your raiding group.

This pretty much explicitly mentions that we're talking about truly hard-core, cream of the crop, world first quality raiding, not the average Joe guilds.

[Sprinkling]

For those that are complaining that they are missing a critical buff, it worries me that you did not realize this during tier-11 content. Since if my 10-man raid team was missing a critical buff there is at least 1 person on the team that would have had an alt that would be able to provide that buff, and we would politely ask for them to switch to that person, to become their raiding main, for the good of the raid team.

If on raid night we were missing critical buff and we were wiping on fights that should have been on farm we would change the plan and gear up alts, not all of us have alts but those who do could gear them up, so that this situation does not happen again. Since normal t-11 has destroyed with the nerfbat it is much easier to gear people up. Now though if we are talking about you missing these critical buffs and you are now in heroic Firelands; I do not mean to sad mean but I think that you should of had some foresight and realized that heroic t-12 would be easier with these buffs and had people switch to alts and either switch to them or quickly gear them up in old t-11 content so that they could be sort of raid ready for t-12. Though this might have slowed you down in terms of your t-12 raid progression it would have at least stopped you from having to be missing these buffs.