Paragon and Heroic 10 man Rag - Not comparable

[JohnRaider]

Hey,

--> I'm not getting into the 10 vs 25man debate, im saying that paragon can't compare the two.

I'll start with a quote from zYN that made me want to post this thread:

Which felt more challenging? 25-man by about a mile and then some. Really, the 10-man heroic bosses just rolled over and gave loot. Ragnaros was a tiny bit challenging, but that was because we tried approaching it in an overly complicated manner (ie., tried to carry over our 25-man tactics).

There's really no argument even to be made that 10's are at all harder or "overtuned." They're easier for a multitude of reasons. And that's not a bad thing, considering some of the limitations.

First off im not here to troll or anything just to give my arguments (and i'd love to hear arguments from the paragon raiders) as to why i (and other people) think the 10 man kill shouldn't be taken too seriously (and subsequently also the opinion of difference in difficulty between 10 man and 25 man that the paragon raiders who participated in the 10 man may have).

I base my arguments on 2 simple facts.
1: Paragon already killed ragnaros. How can you compare apples with oranges? (first vs second kill). Downing a boss the first time takes by far the longest. After that things just seem to get way easier. Doesn't matter if you wiped 10 times, 100 times, or even 500 times, before the first kill. Once its down the first time, repeating it is not nearly as difficult.

2: The chars that killed ragnaros 10 man were way better geared. And of course there's a difference in difficulty when you are taking a group to a raid and gearing up normally/exclusively on 10, vs bringing your best geared people from 25, who are half/nearfull 391 to a 10man raid. Its the difference between 2-3 pieces of 391 gear per person, vs 5-full 391.

So not only are you coming into the 10man version with much better gear than a strict 10man guild would have, but on top of that you built a comp specifically for the encounter which gave you a huge advantage that no 10man guild would ever get. Pretty inaccurate way of gauging difficulty

To summarize: Until you have a 10man that gear exclusively from the 10man, stuff you say about the 10 man doesn't mean anything, simply because you cant compare them equally.

[DiamondTear]

We're not comparing how difficult the bosses would be for a 10 man guild with how difficult they are for us. We're saying that for any guild that puts as much effort as it can into raiding, 10 mans will be significantly easier.

[Diivil]

The number of wipes was included on the news post is there just because people made a big deal of the 500 that were required on 25H and would without a doubt come asking how many it took to kill 10H. I don't think anyone actually compares the 500 to 32 figures. Zyn estimated that doing 10H only would have required around 100 wipes in total if we had not had 25 man experience.

We can still compare stuff like DPS and healing requirements, setups, the likelyhood of someone getting killed by random damage, the overall chaos of P4 etc. All those things are easier in 10 man than 25.

The characters that were in the 10 man kill were in no way given extra loot. Someone can go over the armory and figure out if they had more loot than they would have gotten from a few 10 man raids but I won't bother to do that. The dudes who were on the kill were taken because of their class, not gear. Also I won't bother to check but I really doubt most of the raid had "half 391 gear". We don't just gear 25 characters. We have over 35 members and we have given gear to alts as well like Krimsy who probably has more 3 times more 391 loot than I do (because I don't have any).

The argument that we can take any setup to 10 man because we are a 25 man guild is meaningless. I haven't counted the number of characters we used in Firelands progress raids but I know for a fact that around 70 different characters (from 35 members) were used in T11 progress. Obviously this tiers progress raids took a lot less time (a few weeks instead of 2 months) so the number is going to be lower. We run 2 25 man raids simultaneously during progress raids. My point here is why would it have to be any different in 10 man? If we are going to have to use 70 characters to get 25 man world first, why would 10 man guilds only require to have 10 to 12?

[rorschacho]

They obviously would have taken into account that they were better geared / had more experience when they were judging the difficulty of the boses on 10 man and on 25 man. They had to change the strat for their 10 man kill which means they couldn't just use their 25 man strat which got them the kill. Considering they only wiped 34(?) times on 10 man with a different strat, I think it's safe to say that 10 man was easier for them.

[Diivil]

The characters that were in the 10 man kill were in no way given extra loot. Someone can go over the armory and figure out if they had more loot than they would have gotten from a few 10 man raids but I won't bother to do that. The dudes who were on the kill were taken because of their class, not gear. Also I won't bother to check but I really doubt most of the raid had "half 391 gear". We don't just gear 25 characters. We have over 35 members and we have given gear to alts as well like Krimsy who probably has more 3 times more 391 loot than I do (because I don't have any).

Oh hey look at that. Someone did:

The paragons 10 players have a total combined item level of 3781, leading them to have an average of 378.1 per player.
PARAGON - 378.1 per player.

Hordlinges 9 players have a total combined item level of 3407, leading them to have an average of 378.6 ( Rounded up from 378.5555555555 ) per player.
Hordlinge - 378.6 per player.

So all in all, these guilds are pretty much identically geared, the only thing different between them was some rng.

[boleks]

I'm not very good at long explanations to try and get what im saying accross.
But as far as i can see, Paragon as a whole merely stated the facts about their 10man kill. Yes they had an experience of the kill and yes they probably had more gear, but i dont see where paragon goes claiming fame over the 10man kill, they are merely stating that they did it (and good on em for it) and that was their summary on a whole. I believe for you to make this post is an insult to them, if they killed it and didnt post anything about it im sure you would also have something to say about this.

Congrats to paragon on the first two kills.
I hope this is clear for you guys. (i fail at english)

[Tyrannon]

Isn´t it just a numbers game?

Lets say one of you guys doesn´t play at his best about 25%, which doesn´t mean he failed. Makes 75% for a perfekt Run (this will get better with practice).
For the kill you need that to happen around 20 times (B-Rezz + one or two down. This will decrease with higher gearlvls).

25Man: 0.75^20 = 0.003 ~ 315 Tries. (We´re Talking about chances and the first few were most likely tactical failures)
10Man: 0.75^9 = 0.20 ~17 Tries. (Same here; Chances and first few tactics were wrong)

What does that mean? In both Situations the Player himself is equally skilled and needs to do the equally perfect runs. Its just that the Propability is less in 25. Is this harder? No! Its just more likely to happen.


With that, you can argue that it is more work to get the 25man kill. And that you need to push that 75% Percent up way more than 10man needs to, to get Farmstatus. With better gear you might need less people to perform perfect. But thats it.


For First Kills however 25mans are by far the harder accomlishment, because Time/Tries are a restricting factor!

[zYN]

It's just not that. If your DPS is required to push mere 25k on the 10-man and 30k on the 25-man, there's a pretty damn drastic difference on top of everything else that already exists.

[Vlaidlol]

are u serious? u would imagine someone in the best guild in the world wont be THIS stupid

in 25 man u have every buff u can possibly have, while in any normal 10 man group u are always lacking buffs, this is a significantly big dps loss for the whole raid

[Diahi]

What is a "normal 10 man group"? Why wouldn't it have all of the buffs? You can pretty much get everything with 6 players, possibly not including something minor like double pushback protection. That leaves you with 4 slots to fill with whatever classes you want.

Frankly I'm not sure you have thought about this at all.