Paragon and Heroic 10 man Rag - Not comparable

Re: Paragon and Heroic 10 man Rag - Not comparable

Post 24 Jul 2011 01:20

Avatar Thunderproof
 
Posts: 7
Vlaidlol wrote:are u serious? u would imagine someone in the best guild in the world wont be THIS stupid

in 25 man u have every buff u can possibly have, while in any normal 10 man group u are always lacking buffs, this is a significantly big dps loss for the whole raid


Would you mind explaining what buffs you claim that you don't get? Apparently blue posts are hard and you didn't get used to all the Cataclysm changes almost 8 months after its release. Buffs have been condensed in Cataclysm with many classes sharing the same buffs. In fact, I would say Cataclysm has made bringing every buff to a 10 man raid easier than it has ever been. To be honest, I would love to see the composition that you raid with (unless of course you are PUG raider, in which case you shouldn't be posting in this thread at all).

Re: Paragon and Heroic 10 man Rag - Not comparable

Post 24 Jul 2011 01:56

Avatar Vlaidlol
 
Posts: 5
my group is 6/7 heroic and we have:

dk and warrior for tanks
rogue
hunter
spriest
mage
warlock
priest
paladin
resto druid

so we are missing:

either fire resistance or devo aura (which is huge)
5% crit (unless rogue goes sub which isnt viable for heroic ragnaros...)
4% physical damage unless rogue goes combat...
bleed damage

oh and no prot paladin for raid wall

Re: Paragon and Heroic 10 man Rag - Not comparable

Post 24 Jul 2011 02:14

User avatarHermanni
 
Posts: 341
Yes, I was kind of expecting that 10M guilds would look upon our setup and think "that's not what we have/could have, what a bunch of stackers."

The thing is, like zyn posted somewhere, that the DPS balance in terms of enrage timers and such are off for up to 15% in 10-man, and that was for our "balanced" composition with most buffs. Judging from that, I'd speculate you could do some bosses in 10M without *any* raid buffs and meet the enrage timer at the same point you do in 25M. It's true that you often can't have all buffs in 10-man composition and mechanics that force movement often penalize 10-man groups more than 25-man groups, but from what we've seen these shortcomings are compensated more than enough in boss tuning.

Re: Paragon and Heroic 10 man Rag - Not comparable

Post 24 Jul 2011 06:48

Avatar Sprinkling
 
Posts: 3
Vlaidlol wrote:so we are missing:

either fire resistance or devo aura (which is huge)
5% crit (unless rogue goes sub which isnt viable for heroic ragnaros...)
4% physical damage unless rogue goes combat...
bleed damage

oh and no prot paladin for raid wall


Just wondering what pet is your hunter using since beside the top item. One of the lower 3 could be covered by a hunters pet.

Re: Paragon and Heroic 10 man Rag - Not comparable

Post 24 Jul 2011 08:16

Avatar Sinine
 
Posts: 1
....

Re: Paragon and Heroic 10 man Rag - Not comparable

Post 24 Jul 2011 09:30

Avatar Sprinkling
 
Posts: 3
Sinine wrote:....


Am I mistaken I thought that hunter pets had those 3 buffs/debuffs.

Re: Paragon and Heroic 10 man Rag - Not comparable

Post 24 Jul 2011 10:22

Avatar Diahi
 
Posts: 202
Vlaidlol wrote:my group is 6/7 heroic and we have:

either fire resistance or devo aura (which is huge)
5% crit (unless rogue goes sub which isnt viable for heroic ragnaros...)
4% physical damage unless rogue goes combat...
bleed damage

oh and no prot paladin for raid wall


Ok let's see,
- devo aura is around 3% physical damage reduction so you'd obviously want fire resistance for most fights. Neither affect raid dps which has been the subject here.
- 5% crit comes from a hunter pet (or sub which could be perfectly viable for ragnaros – if you adjusted your tactics to accommodate for that – and definitely usable on other firelands fights)
- For ragnaros and majority of the other fights in firelands the rogue would be combat or sub anyway. Who the hell plays muti when half of the bosses favor either expertise or cleaving?
- Bleed damage is the only debuff you cannot get unless the rogue plays sub. But why would you need it? The rogue is the only one who even has bleeds and dropping rupture from combat rotation is something like a 1% damage loss. For mutilate you probably don't even lose that much as the majority of rupture damage comes from venomous wounds.
-If the rogue goes sub you can switch the hunter pet to give 4% physical damage and be done with it. I'd say that it's even the best spec for Alysrazor, Baleroc, Bethilac and Shannox.
- Your warrior raid last stand pretty much covers the raid wall even if you have to make a sacrifice on his personal last stand cooldown.

So basically you need to be flexible with the specs you play in a 10 man, but you can get all of the meaningful buffs nevertheless. Perhaps if you were serious about raiding and were missing some critical buffs you'd think about someone possibly changing their class. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that a 10 man guild is able to get the hardest bosses down fast with just 10 characters. If you are unable to adapt to the state of the game you probably won't get too far.

Re: Paragon and Heroic 10 man Rag - Not comparable

Post 24 Jul 2011 13:47

Avatar Tyrannon
 
Posts: 10
Just to try understanding why Blizzard tuned DPS like that:

State of DPS(Bo40): Yes i know thats not perfect ....

Top 3 DD - Diference between 25H and 10H
Adjusted Totals: 35K->29K
Magmaw: 49K->38K
Omni: 43K-> 38K
Chim: 30K->27K
Attra: 30K->27k

and so on.

For normal Raids it seems like the DPS-difference is infact around that 5K. Regardless of missing Buffs or not. Maybe the way 10man works influences the DPS more.

This is also based by my subjective experience in Raids, where i tend to do way more dmg in 25man than in 10 man with almost perfect Comp.


But i´ll say it again. The fact that you got 25Kill before any other got even 10man Kill means, that the Playerskilllvl is beastly with high numbers in the Perfect Run Chances. The Numbers were against you ;).
Huge Effort huge award.

Re: Paragon and Heroic 10 man Rag - Not comparable

Post 24 Jul 2011 20:05

Avatar Vlaidlol
 
Posts: 5
Diahi wrote:
Vlaidlol wrote:my group is 6/7 heroic and we have:

either fire resistance or devo aura (which is huge)
5% crit (unless rogue goes sub which isnt viable for heroic ragnaros...)
4% physical damage unless rogue goes combat...
bleed damage

oh and no prot paladin for raid wall


Ok let's see,
- devo aura is around 3% physical damage reduction so you'd obviously want fire resistance for most fights. Neither affect raid dps which has been the subject here.
- 5% crit comes from a hunter pet (or sub which could be perfectly viable for ragnaros – if you adjusted your tactics to accommodate for that – and definitely usable on other firelands fights)
- For ragnaros and majority of the other fights in firelands the rogue would be combat or sub anyway. Who the hell plays muti when half of the bosses favor either expertise or cleaving?
- Bleed damage is the only debuff you cannot get unless the rogue plays sub. But why would you need it? The rogue is the only one who even has bleeds and dropping rupture from combat rotation is something like a 1% damage loss. For mutilate you probably don't even lose that much as the majority of rupture damage comes from venomous wounds.
-If the rogue goes sub you can switch the hunter pet to give 4% physical damage and be done with it. I'd say that it's even the best spec for Alysrazor, Baleroc, Bethilac and Shannox.
- Your warrior raid last stand pretty much covers the raid wall even if you have to make a sacrifice on his personal last stand cooldown.

So basically you need to be flexible with the specs you play in a 10 man, but you can get all of the meaningful buffs nevertheless. Perhaps if you were serious about raiding and were missing some critical buffs you'd think about someone possibly changing their class. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that a 10 man guild is able to get the hardest bosses down fast with just 10 characters. If you are unable to adapt to the state of the game you probably won't get too far.


devo aura is 3% physical damage? really? our tank went from getting hit from 100 to 70k in heroic magmaw when we turned devo aura on, feel free to try it out yourself

piercing shots? huge part of hunters dps as mm, bleed damage

and as you said, warrior last stand is on cd with his, making paladin raid wall significantly better

Re: Paragon and Heroic 10 man Rag - Not comparable

Post 24 Jul 2011 20:27

User avatarzYN
 
Posts: 405
Tyrannon wrote:Top 3 DD - Diference between 25H and 10H
Adjusted Totals: 35K->29K
Magmaw: 49K->38K
Omni: 43K-> 38K
Chim: 30K->27K
Attra: 30K->27k

Why is it that our raid group always manages to pull the same numbers in 10s setups when doing DPS? Yet the fights feel like we're having Bloodlust 24/7 because of the tuning. Everything just melts so fast.