The LFR discussion

[arx]

Paragon is (most likely) out of the race for world first yes, They tried to out-smarten the others by using a unintended bug and exploit to their gains and creating an advantage over the others. But now Paragon is facing the penalty they deserved, leaving all their Fans and Sponsors behind in the cold. Its all in the game Buddy. And whoes to blame for that? Exactly.

Please at least try to keep the discussion coherent. We do also appreciate your viewpoint, but it's starting to sound a bit like a broken record when there's no apparent relation to the posts you're quoting. That naturally also goes for everyone else.

[Aurumai]

Paragon is (most likely) out of the race for world first yes

What exactly leads you to believe that? They currently have exactly as many heroic bosses down as anyone else. They're tied for first place.

They tried to out-smarten the others by using a unintended bug and exploit to their gains and creating an advantage over the others.

There isn't anyone to "out-smarten". A good deal of the top guilds had people banned for this very reason. A lot of people did it. It doesn't take a genius to open your eyes and realize what's going on around you.

But now Paragon is facing the penalty they deserved, leaving all their Fans and Sponsors behind in the cold. Its all in the game Buddy. And whoes to blame for that? Exactly.

I still see the sponsors' logos on the header, and Paragon will have a huge fanbase so long as they're among the top players, which isn't going to change any time soon.

It's a little annoying that everyone

How can you assume that everyone who is defending Paragon

Double standards much? I even said "just about" as in people who made their voice heard back then.

You clearly implied that everyone who was defending Paragon's decision was "flaming" Stars in T11. Are you forgetting that?

Your "I'm so better than you I even post in blue" crap doesn't convince anyone.

I posted in blue because I like blue. Why exactly do you have a problem with that?

Care to explain your thoughts on why Blood Legion and Vodka, arguably world top guilds, didn't pursue this strat?

Let's remember that they're not THE top guilds. I've never seen Blood Legion, Exodus, or Refuge in the top 5. Vodka barely scratches 5 in FL. What I'm saying is that Paragon didn't use the exploit to beat Blood Legion or Vodka. I'm sure that we could both agree that neither of those guilds have a chance at clearing the heroic content before Paragon. Paragon used the exploit in hopes of gaining the upper hand, or rather, to keep up with Method and Ensidia. Paragon, Method and Ensidia have all been world first, or close at some point. I'd imagine that the lesser guilds have no reason to risk being banned for the exploit, because it wouldn't have helped them -- They all know they're not beating Method, Paragon or Ensidia any time soon.

arguably world top guilds

The only reason they have a shot at world-top at the moment is because the REAL world-top guilds aren't in a position to compete.

Or are they now "lesser" guilds in your eyes? Because according to your argument they should have done the LFR thing.

I don't look down on any guild for any decision regarding the exploit. If you avoid it because you believe in "fair play", then that's great. If you used it to ensure the possibility of keeping up with competing guilds, then you did what you had to do to defend your place.

[Netjeri]

All explanations you gave, I can really understand. Still it's sad you need to, because I believe you really don't. I do agree that Blizzard failed in a lot of things in the past few years since release, but World of Warcraft, was never intended to be a Pro-Gaming Arena at first, even in PvP.

My point is, programming a game like this, has to much parameters to consider, especially when you do raid encounters. So not everything can be fixed in an timely fashion as you wish they had, some things are far from possible like the standard bag to be larger (just to give an example). Despite does facts, I understand, as I said before, why your doing it, because in the real world, be it sports, be it business, be it politics, hell even in School...if you don't cheat here and there you are on the loosing street, period.

[WowCorner]

Hey, my first post on the forums. *Grats for me yay..* But now, Im not sure if Im breaking rules or not atm, just look at the rules. "You agree not to post any.. ..sexually-orientated material where “Paragon” is hosted or International Law" Now, if someone would get hardon everytime from reading word "Paragon", then I would be breaking the rules. Now back to topic.

Second thing to say. Im in no way means of trying to flame or hurt you guys. What ever the reason it was you did it is your consern, but I think its totally acceptable from my point of view. Now, keep ears open. Im guessing you guys have alts. You did it on mains or alts, but still have (hopefully) double accounts, so its "no problem" for you for getting a ban. Well ofcourse it is, but if you have the alts to do the world first with anyway, then it doesnt hurt that much - you get to do the achi anyway. Look at it this way, what if everyone would have got get away with it? Well, then you would have that all gear and not be behind anyway. Now if you have the alts, you are still in very good position. This perspective makes it realy understandable. Think about the market economy, if you dont use the cheapest way to make products, then your product prices are higher. Im not getting to quality with this or its all gets way too philosophical and confusing while talking about world of warcraft. Please dont flame me, and keep discussion civilized.

Edit: I just realized if none would actually exploit it, the problem would have not been fixed at all and people would still be using it in private. At least the bug is fixed and maybe hopefully blizzards game development quality gets better. But still, its not I wouldnt have done it too if I would have knew about it.

[Aurumai]

World of Warcraft, was never intended to be a Pro-Gaming Arena at first, even in PvP.

That's not necessarily the case. Blizzard has always called WoW an MMO. The first "M" implicates a very large player base. Whenever there's a large player base, the best of the best players are competitive.

But now, Im not sure if Im breaking rules or not atm, just look at the rules. "You agree not to post any.. ..sexually-orientated material where “Paragon” is hosted or International Law" Now, if someone would get hardon everytime from reading word "Paragon", then I would be breaking the rules. Now back to topic.

...Seriously?

[Netjeri]

World of Warcraft, was never intended to be a Pro-Gaming Arena at first, even in PvP.

That's not necessarily the case. Blizzard has always called WoW an MMO. The first "M" implicates a very large player base. Whenever there's a large player base, the best of the best players are competitive.

But now, Im not sure if Im breaking rules or not atm, just look at the rules. "You agree not to post any.. ..sexually-orientated material where “Paragon” is hosted or International Law" Now, if someone would get hardon everytime from reading word "Paragon", then I would be breaking the rules. Now back to topic.

...Seriously?

That is your interpration of the Genre "MMORPG". Designwise it wasn't create like that, otherwise there would be offical rules and regulations wich only apply for the the competitions in raiding. Actually even PvP Arena does have much more recognition from Blizzard and support by opening an own arena server once a year, prices on Blizzcon etc. Raiders just show of their skills thats it and is just supported by having progress pages wich are not from Blizzard but only accepted by the community (even not by all, beacuse it's not offical).

People do compete where there find somthing to compare there skills but it doesn't ncessarly mean that in this case Blizzard designed it this way, and if you see Beta through today, it still isn't designed this way. For instance in MoP where you can a race who clears the fastes a instance, where you have a offical ranking, where equpiment is normalized, there you have a supported competition.

So I do agree that you can see it this way, in the end it's not an offical supproted competition and therefore its not somthing what Blizzard intended and probably never will really implement to be a real competition (normalized Equipment)

Anyway this is now off-topic and will be my last topic. Stopped World of Warcraft now after so many years.

Good Luck Paragon, hope you give me a smile by beating still Blood Legion in the end :)

[Aurumai]

That is your interpration of the Genre "MMORPG".

It isn't MY interpretation. That's what an MMO is. Lots of players, in an online gaming world. Care to elaborate on what you think an MMO is?

Designwise it wasn't create like that

Actually, it was "create" like that. MMOs that were intended only to give players a casual gameplay experience do exactly what they're meant to do -- Give players a casual gaming experience. If you've been around for very long, you'd know how difficult and hardcore serious PvE was, even from the very start. Not just any shmuck could put together a raid and go faceroll through all of the content. Many people would even agree that present day raiding is easier than it was in Vanilla and BC altogether. The only difference now is that the best of the best have established for themselves, and built up a strong reputation for being able to tackle any challenge the developers throw their way.

otherwise there would be offical rules and regulations wich only apply for the the competitions in raiding.

Limitations and regulations are set by the environment. It's a rule that you can't bring 50 players into a 25-Man raid. It's a rule that you can't clear content with 100% healers or 100% DPS or 100% tanks. It's a rule (at least in appropriate content and gear) that you must heed encounter mechanics, or you simply don't succeed. It's a rule (again, with appropriate content and gear) that you can't walk into a raid and solo everything. Do you see what I'm saying? They don't need any more rules and regulations -- They open an instance when new content is released, and all of the world's top guilds go in and nuke everything in sight.

Raiders just show of their skills thats it and is just supported by having progress pages wich are not from Blizzard but only accepted by the community (even not by all, beacuse it's not offical).

(I've gone ahead and highlighted the areas where you're completely and utterly wrong.)
• Blizzcon 2009
• Blizzcon 2010
• Blizzcon 2011

People do compete where there find somthing to compare there skills but it doesn't ncessarly mean that in this case Blizzard designed it this way, and if you see Beta through today, it still isn't designed this way.

See above.

[ironxena]

You lost a battle, but you can still win the war.

[Rimijärjekord]

There are stories on the net that the ban lifts hours before the raid reset takes place. Is it true? Can you quickly get some loot before a new reset to even grounds a bit for Deathwing progression? But the fact that it was 8 days makes me doubt that. At what time exactly do you get unbanned tomorrow?

[Bragaul]

I totally understand that as long as Blizzard doesn't consistently correct cheats, exploits etc. through bans or removing gear etc. that guilds will be compelled to follow suit in order to stay competitive; it's true, they would have to. Moral objections aside, if doping isn't being controlled for, people are going to dope and if you're in that race, you're going to lose unless you dope too.

There's been a lot of discussion over what happened. But what about next time? Do you feel that this ban by Blizzard will be consistently applied to future exploits? Has Blizzard's response convinced you of their commitment to provide and maintain a fair race within WoW? If so, then clearly cheating guilds will be disqualified.

But what if Blizzard hasn't convinced you? Does that mean that future exploits will need to be exploited? I think the answer is obvious: yes.

More importantly, how does the requirement of exploiting game mechanics to stay competitive taint your actual successes? Do you still want to compete in an obviously broken race? What does first, second, or third place mean if the race is so f****d up anyways? What's the point of racing to first if the race isn't fair in the "first place"?

Forum posters are commenting that this race is totally different now that the bans went out but with each tier having some sort of stupid exploit hasn't every single race been undermined?