My raid group is 10 man and we don't have a ret pally or bm hunter that could provide the 3% damage buff and we also don't have a warlock either to provide the 5% spell crit taken debuff on target. Since we have 3 casters (a sp with legendary, a moonkin and myself as mage) I wanted to play fire since its much more fun. However since the 3% damage buff is raid wide my team thought it would be much more beneficial especially in fights that require high dps (like heroic Ultraxion) and thus i am 'forced' to play arcane.
So here is my dilemma I would really like to go fire but i also want what's best for the team. Is the 3% damage buff that important? I read that in 10 man its a 'must have' and if there is no other class that can bring it then i must sacrifice myself as mage and stay arcane. I have also read that in recent sims fire is above arcane in BiS gear in Patchwerk fight and if that is true then arcane is pretty much done for, not to mention that fire seems to be more viable than arcane in almost all DS encounters. I am really conflicted about this because i don't really know what's best to choose.
How important is the 3% damage buff
Re: How important is the 3% damage buff
17 Dec 2011 17:12
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Sveitman
- Posts: 9
You just need to do some math. Just ask every caster to sim with/without the crit debuff then compare that with the raidwide damage increase with 3%. Or just try them and compare the results. I'd guess the 3% is better but to be sure do the math.
Re: How important is the 3% damage buff
17 Dec 2011 17:29
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Gift
- Posts: 1
Wow my guild is dealing with something similar yet we have a Mage and a lock the only problem is I'm the hunter and my RL want me to go BM for heroic ultraxion yet I have NEVER gone BM for PVE it was always just a stupid choice but my dilemma is I get "benched" if I don't go BM and pull over 32K. Here's my question. There is a hunter pet called a ravager it's ability is called ravage and it increases damage taken by the enemy it's attacking by 4% so wouldn't that be better than going BM for the 3%? And the ability last 25sec yet has a 15sec cd so uptime is 100%.
Re: How important is the 3% damage buff
17 Dec 2011 18:19
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Qwertly
- Posts: 1
The ravager pet only increases physical damage done by 4%. Combat Rogues, Frost DKs, and Arms Warriors bring the same debuff.
Re: How important is the 3% damage buff
17 Dec 2011 19:47
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Guromin
- Posts: 190
Nekolas,
There are two things to keep in mind here, what fight it's on and you. It's important that you don't burn yourself out because your playing arcane all the time, but it's also important that your raid isn't hindered because of the missing 3% damage buff. On farm content there is no need to be arcane just so you have the damage buff. Morchok will still die even if your raid is missing that buff; however, if you are fighting Heroic Ultraxion your raid needs the buff. Getting everyone to do 38k dps each (at least on 25m it's that way) requires having those buffs, and Arcane does good damage on that fight.
If I lost you in that block of text what I'm trying to say is don't burn yourself out playing Arcane, but don't prevent your raid from killing a boss as fire.
-Guromin
There are two things to keep in mind here, what fight it's on and you. It's important that you don't burn yourself out because your playing arcane all the time, but it's also important that your raid isn't hindered because of the missing 3% damage buff. On farm content there is no need to be arcane just so you have the damage buff. Morchok will still die even if your raid is missing that buff; however, if you are fighting Heroic Ultraxion your raid needs the buff. Getting everyone to do 38k dps each (at least on 25m it's that way) requires having those buffs, and Arcane does good damage on that fight.
If I lost you in that block of text what I'm trying to say is don't burn yourself out playing Arcane, but don't prevent your raid from killing a boss as fire.
-Guromin
Re: How important is the 3% damage buff
18 Dec 2011 00:56
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Nekolas
- Posts: 11
@Sveitman: The 3% damage buff will always outweigh the 5% spell crit debuff for the simple fact that it is raid wide and every dps benefit from it not only a couple. The 3% also gives guaranteed damage and it doesn't rely on RNG as the crit one, so yeah it will always be the better choice.
@Gift: If the mage and warlock both have legendaries or even if just one of them has (especially the mage) then its definitely worth switching to BM. After the lastest balances BM is not that far behind MM or Surv and you can still provide competitive dps, especially since its only for one fight.
@Guromin: I understand what you're trying to say. If fire and arcane would have similar reforges it would be so easy, just change spec and own. However reforging/gemming for every encounter is tedious and expensive and takes time so yeah I guess that during progression I will stay as arcane even if i'll have to wing it on Hagara. Maybe later on once we get more gear and the t13 4 set bonus i could switch to fire since the dps requirement won't be so steep. You say i shouldn't burn out by playing arcane, but it seems I have no other choice if i also want to help my guild. The only 'solution' would be to go to a 25 man raid group but that is not an option right now.
P.S. Is it true that Fire sims better than Arcane in BiS gear on Patchwerk fight?
@Gift: If the mage and warlock both have legendaries or even if just one of them has (especially the mage) then its definitely worth switching to BM. After the lastest balances BM is not that far behind MM or Surv and you can still provide competitive dps, especially since its only for one fight.
@Guromin: I understand what you're trying to say. If fire and arcane would have similar reforges it would be so easy, just change spec and own. However reforging/gemming for every encounter is tedious and expensive and takes time so yeah I guess that during progression I will stay as arcane even if i'll have to wing it on Hagara. Maybe later on once we get more gear and the t13 4 set bonus i could switch to fire since the dps requirement won't be so steep. You say i shouldn't burn out by playing arcane, but it seems I have no other choice if i also want to help my guild. The only 'solution' would be to go to a 25 man raid group but that is not an option right now.
P.S. Is it true that Fire sims better than Arcane in BiS gear on Patchwerk fight?
Re: How important is the 3% damage buff
18 Dec 2011 05:15
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Guromin
- Posts: 190
Nekolas,
Yes, fire is better than arcane for single target damage. You can run your own sim or take a look at this:
http://simulationcraft.org/430/Raid_T13H.html
On another note, why would you need to go reforge? Lets say you need Arcane for Ultraxion (H), but nothing else. Have fire reforging ready at the start of the raid and change to Arcane right before Ultraxion (H). After Ultraxion there isn't a real need to change back. You should be able to play fire with sub-optimal reforging and defeat the rest of the bosses on normal (especially if your were working on Heroic Ultraxion). I really don't know what else to say, but it sucks to change it all the time, but it must be done. Often times your guild will compensate you if your spending excessive amounts of gold on such things so maybe take it up with your officers.
Returning to your original question, the answer is very important on bosses that require heavy damage. Not important on bosses that don't require heavy damage.
-Guromin
Yes, fire is better than arcane for single target damage. You can run your own sim or take a look at this:
http://simulationcraft.org/430/Raid_T13H.html
On another note, why would you need to go reforge? Lets say you need Arcane for Ultraxion (H), but nothing else. Have fire reforging ready at the start of the raid and change to Arcane right before Ultraxion (H). After Ultraxion there isn't a real need to change back. You should be able to play fire with sub-optimal reforging and defeat the rest of the bosses on normal (especially if your were working on Heroic Ultraxion). I really don't know what else to say, but it sucks to change it all the time, but it must be done. Often times your guild will compensate you if your spending excessive amounts of gold on such things so maybe take it up with your officers.
Returning to your original question, the answer is very important on bosses that require heavy damage. Not important on bosses that don't require heavy damage.
-Guromin
Re: How important is the 3% damage buff
18 Dec 2011 06:49
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Nekolas
- Posts: 11
Indeed, i just ran my own sims and fire seems to be better than arcane.
As for the reforging part it can easily be 100-200 gold/reforge add to that the money for repairs and it can easily go up to 500g or more per night. I will have a chat with the officers about this and try to figure out a way.
I do however have one more problem, I noticed that both Rawr and askmrrobot tend to over-evaluate haste and thus i can't get a good optimization. I've really had no problems as arcane with Rawr so i kinda stuck with it but now i'm looking for another reforging program (if any) that can give an accurate optimization and stop the haste cap at 2005 for fire. I know that Simcraft is also used for optimization but i really don't know how to use it like that. I only use Simcraft to check the dps. So...besides those are there any similar programs/addons that can do that?
As for the reforging part it can easily be 100-200 gold/reforge add to that the money for repairs and it can easily go up to 500g or more per night. I will have a chat with the officers about this and try to figure out a way.
I do however have one more problem, I noticed that both Rawr and askmrrobot tend to over-evaluate haste and thus i can't get a good optimization. I've really had no problems as arcane with Rawr so i kinda stuck with it but now i'm looking for another reforging program (if any) that can give an accurate optimization and stop the haste cap at 2005 for fire. I know that Simcraft is also used for optimization but i really don't know how to use it like that. I only use Simcraft to check the dps. So...besides those are there any similar programs/addons that can do that?
Re: How important is the 3% damage buff
18 Dec 2011 07:19
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Guromin
- Posts: 190
I am currently optimizing my reforging with http://www.Wowreforge.com
You will need to enter in the values manually, but the way it calculates is incredible. I do feel like it's user friendly enough to not require much instruction, but if you do have questions about it let me know.
In terms of gold 500g shouldn't be that much. If your really having issues sell valor items from an alt to supliment the gold. I've made a lot of gold recently from shattering Maelstroms I stored up and selling the gems I get, but don't need from Dragon Soul. I spent about 25k on gems in the first week and that much again the second week, but I've made that all back and more.
-Guromin
You will need to enter in the values manually, but the way it calculates is incredible. I do feel like it's user friendly enough to not require much instruction, but if you do have questions about it let me know.
In terms of gold 500g shouldn't be that much. If your really having issues sell valor items from an alt to supliment the gold. I've made a lot of gold recently from shattering Maelstroms I stored up and selling the gems I get, but don't need from Dragon Soul. I spent about 25k on gems in the first week and that much again the second week, but I've made that all back and more.
-Guromin
Re: How important is the 3% damage buff
18 Dec 2011 07:55
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Nekolas
- Posts: 11
I just tried wowreforge and indeed its really amazing. I have heard about it before but i discarded it since i had rawr and askmrrobot, but not anymore :)
Anyway thanks a lot for all the advice and good luck with your DS progression :)
Anyway thanks a lot for all the advice and good luck with your DS progression :)
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