Arcane Few Questions (AM/FO/Haste SoftCap)

[Eryck]

Hello, im currently a Arcane mage pulling between 20-22k depending on fight trying to always do better and better! Im currently having some hesitation by looking to other log from the same fight.

1. During conservative phase, I was wondering if it was better to channel a FULL Arcane Missile or if it is better to start casting Arcane Blast right out of the Global Cooldown? I've been looking to a lot of log from worldoflogs and it seems that they're AM was proccing for only 2 hit (So casting AB when the GCD is out).

2. When is it better to use flame orb? When moving? On a clearcasting proc? Using it with a clearcasting proc during conservative phase to get more mana?

3. What's the haste "softcap" to replace t11Heroic 4 piece? How much Intellect it worth it to start replacing the t11H 4piece? I currently could replace my 4 set with +100Intellect and t12 2piece. Is it worth it or im better keeping t11_4set(3heroic piece, 1 Normal).

Thx you for answer. It is really appreciate!

[Guromin]

Eryck,

1. During conservative phase, I was wondering if it was better to channel a FULL Arcane Missile or if it is better to start casting Arcane Blast right out of the Global Cooldown? I've been looking to a lot of log from worldoflogs and it seems that they're AM was proccing for only 2 hit (So casting AB when the GCD is out).

Back in Wrath of the Lich King it was a really big deal if you clipped Arcane Missiles, but now days in Cataclysm Arcane Missiles function more as mana control than actual damage. In general Arcane Missiles will only make up between 3%-9% of your damage. Although this may vary depending on the fight and certain mechanics, it is still a dps loss to clip them. Each Arcane missiles cast is divided with tick marks. Every 'X' amount of seconds a missile will fire. If you clip before one goes off, you essentially did nothing for that 'X' amount of time. Same thing with Arcane Blast. Arcane Blast takes 'X' seconds to cast and if you interrupt it before you finish you loose the amount of time you spent casting the spell. Arcane Missiles are unlike other channeled spells like Blizzard because they cost no mana. Clipping a spell like Blizzard mid way will mean that for the full mana cost you only got half the damage out of it. Half of zero mana cost is still zero so from that regard it's not the end of the world. I will say, that if my mana looks as though it is going to cap off or I am going to get overflow I will interrupt my Arcane Missiles for an Arcane Blast in an attempt not to waste any incoming mana. I say it a lot; mana is dps for arcane.

When is it better to use flame orb? When moving? On a clearcasting proc? Using it with a clearcasting proc during conservative phase to get more mana?

Do not use flame orb on a clear casting proc. Always, always, always use clear casting procs on Arcane Blast. The more stacks of Arcane Blast you have the better. Saving youself 6000 mana is much more significant than saving yourself only 1000 mana. in order to correctly assess when to use Flame Orb you need to plan out what is going to happen. If you know that you won't have to move for a long time, then I would use Flame Orb during your conservation phase. If your on a movement heavy fight it's a good idea to have Flame Orb ready to be used when you need to move. Flame Orb is one of our most powerful and effective spells to cast while moving and it's easy on the mana. Arcane Barrage costs nearly double the amount of mana for less total damage. When moving PoM and Flame Orb should be at the top of your use list with Arcane Barrage, Fire Blast and Ice Lance following in that order.

What's the haste "softcap" to replace t11Heroic 4 piece? How much Intellect it worth it to start replacing the t11H 4piece? I currently could replace my 4 set with +100Intellect and t12 2piece. Is it worth it or im better keeping t11_4set(3heroic piece, 1 Normal).

I don't know all the details on your raid composition to be able to tell you what the soft haste cap is. So instead I will teach you how to calculate it.

Calculating the Soft Haste Cap:

Remove all your gear and make your way to a Training Dummy.
Use Time Warp and cast Arcane Blast 4 times. Check the tooltip on Arcane Blast and write down the cast time.
If you have the 5% haste buff in your raid divide the cast time by 1.05.
If you have the t11 Mage 4 set bonus divide the cast time by 1.10.
If a warlock is giving you Dark Intent divide the result by 1.03.
Take the final result and subtract 1 from it.
Lastly to get the soft haste cap multiply the result you calculated by 12,806. This will tell you your soft haste cap.

I did some calculations last night (for myself actually) to see if it would be viable to replace my t11 4 set with non-set items from Heroic Firelands. The real goal was to find out when the intellect on the new gear outweighed the amazing t11 4 set bonus. These results apply specifically to my character, but should give you a general idea for your own. The intellect on Heroic Firelands gear outweighed the t11 4 set when I equipped 3 391 Item level pieces including the Chest. Equipping 3 allows me to keep the t11 2 set bonus of 5% Critical Strike, which is a strong stat for arcane. This will change for you depending on how many of your set items are 372 Item Level and how many are 359 Item level. Keep in mind that if the intellect on non-set heroic 391 items outweighed the t11 4 set bonus that heroic set items will work as well.

What I don't know yet, is how much intellect it takes to overcome the power of the t11 4 set. My best estimation is around 250 intellect along with the benefit from more of other stats. By the way, I also have 3 heroic set times and one non heroic right now. Our guild had a serious scarcity of Vanquisher in t11.

If you have any other questions feel free to make a post or send me a private message.

-Guromin

[Eryck]

First of all, i would like to thank you for the fast and complete answer!

I don't know if I should continue that discussion on private or via forum, but since i think it can help other people (I am certainly not the only one in that situation!), i will keep posting here :)

Here some test that i ran with Simulation Craft:
I fully work out 2 set of gear; one with the T11 4sets, where i pretty much reforge to Mastery/Crit and a 2nd test while replacing my piece with the new one (T11 2set and T12 2set) where i also did all the reforge.
I kept the same trinket for both set.

Here's the stats that i was getting:
T11_4set / T12_2set
5428 / 5530 Intellect
917(11.48%) / 1201(13.79%) Haste
1750(17.08%) / 1742(17%) Hit Rating
1029(18.01%) / 1155(18.87%) Critical Hit
1879(18.48%) / 1493(16.33%) Mastery

RESULT:
28,562 / 29,055 DPS

So here's my dilema:
Simulation craft show that i should do more dps with T12_2set. But should it really be? It seems that i miss 384 haste to get to haste cap (I did the calculation with how you told me to do, i count only the 5% Caster Haste, need 1585 haste to be capped).

So... is simulation craft a good tool to maximize the gear?
Which of those 2 set of gear should i use?

Thank you again for your help!

Eryck

P.S. Here's my current armory with the T11_4set.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/uldaman/Eryck/simple

[Guromin]

Eryck,

Awesome to see you doing some of your own calculations. Begging with the Soft Haste cap. When I calculated this I got a result slightly different than yours. I think it's because your a goblin and I am not. Without the t11 4 set I got a result in the 1700's, but with the set bonus it's reduced to only 474. This is part of why the t11 set bonus is so good. However, I am still not convinced that reaching that number makes haste better than mastery without your t11 set bonus. I ran several tests to find out how haste scales with gear and if it would increase your dps to be at the haste cap by switching my reforging around and not using the t11 4 set. I did not get a dps increase from going for the haste cap. I would still say your safest bet is to go for mastery. Reforging to haste at

Simulation Craft is defiantly very good at determining your dps and in general I would trust it. I personally don't see why your dps would be higher with the 2 set. If I had to guess it looks like you may have optimized your reforging for use of the 2 set which left the stats on your 4 set over the hit cap, but then when I look and see that you lost nearly 400 mastery I seriously question the reforging of your gear with the 2 set. How many alliterations did you run for this simulation craft test? Did you change your reforging when you swapped your gear?

This post may be short, but there was a lot more behind the scenes on testing. This ended up taking a really long time to try and double check.

-Guromin

[Reckert]

Hi,

Whenever I want to find out my hastecap, I use only numbers that I know are 100% correct.
Your tooltip only gives you like 2 digits (1,25 sec etc.).

To get a more accurate result do like this:
AB is 2 sec caste time.
4 stacks is 0.4 faster, giving you 1.6
Divide by 1.03 (3 NP)
Divide by 1.05 (Raid buff)
Divide by 1.1 (If you have 4T11 equipped)
Divide by 1.03 (You should NEVER have dark intent, but if you do, here it is)
Substract 1
Multiply by 12,806

When I've done calculations I've had differences in about 100 haste rating (that was without 4T11, making the results vary more ofc.)

Hope this helps

Edit:
When I've done some calculations on Mastery Vs. Haste, my general result is, if I just go with 3T11 as my gear is right now, haste (and some times even crit, sim doesn't always agree with itself) beat mastery. But I used chardev to equip a little better gear, and as soon as I go over 8500 SP unbufed (Almost full Firelands normal gear) Mastery beats both haste and crit.

Ofc this all varys, depending on your other stats, but I just thought I would share my calculations with you :)

Shizzy @ Darksorrow

[Eryck]

By switching to t12_2sets, i lost like 600 hits from gear (Shoulder, Helm and Leg). So i had to basically reforge everything to get back to 17% of hit (Example, i had to reforge DMC:Volano to Hit). But, since its only reforge right now, every new piece with haste I am getting will higher my mastery cap by a lot since i will be able to reforge back some piece to get more and more mastery.

I ran like 5-6 simulation from each set of gear, and number were "kinda" the same, T12_2sets was always higher no matter what.

so here's the result from the parse from dps from each ability.

T11_4sets / T12_2sets
379 / 330 Abar
22862 / 23114 AB
3643 / 3316 AM
952 / 964 FO
897 / 905 MI
0 / 559 T12_2set Mirror image

So I think the increase of int make the AB do more DPS, and the T12_2set make a 500+ dps increase. So in those parse, i get 252 more dps from my AB and 559 from T12_2sets.

Thx for sharing your calculation Reckert!

[Guromin]

Eryck and Reckert,

Clerification on Arcane Mage Soft Haste Cap

It's important when talking about the Arcane Mage soft Haste cap to realize the difference between a 'cap' and a breaking point. When you reach a cap the stat no longer gives you any more dps increase. When critical strike reaches 100% it no longer gives you any more benefit. When you get to 17% hit it no longer gives you any dps benefit. Breaking points are points that you strive to reach in order to increase the damage of a spell. Getting an extra tick from Living Bomb or Combustion. Now a soft cap is when a value's benefit to your dps significantly decreases but still provides some benefit. For Arcane Mages, haste no longer provides any more dps when the Cast Time of Arcane Blast falls bellow 1 second. The value of haste significantly decreases when Arcane Blast's cast time reaches 1 second while under the Blood Lust effect. Typically we will be using our CD's and entering a burn phase as this happens so it really does make for a good portion of our fights total damage in these 40 seconds, however there are a few variables that make gearing for this complicated. Keep reading and I will discuss them.

I think it's really cool that we are starting to see a more mathematical discussion of theory crafting arising on the forums. I do want to say that I really do agree with Reckter. I personally have my tooltip set to give me 3 digits but, it'd defiantly better to just simply do the math. I did not include Netherwind Presence in my steps because it's already been calculated when you find you look at the tooltip. Having people look at the tooltip saves a few steps of calculating Goblin haste and Netherwind Presence, but your right in saying that an exact answer is more preferable. I compiled a complete list of things that could affect your Soft Haste Cap.

Start with 2 for the cast time of Arcane Blast and follow the directions for whichever of them apply.
* = Not Optional
*Subtract .4 from 2
*Blood Lust: Divide by 1.30
Netherwind Presence: Divide by 1.03
Goblin Haste buff: Divide by 1.01
t11 4 set equiped: Divide by 1.10
Dark Intent (which warlocks really shouldn't give you): Divide by 1.03
Raid Haste buff: Divide by 1.05

Take the result and subtract 1 and multiply by 12,806 to find your soft haste cap.


I have noticed that simulation craft doesn't really agree with it'self on the importance or unimportant of the Soft Haste Cap. I think part of it is that for Classes like Trolls with a 10 second buff of 20% reduced Casting Speed the soft haste cap only applies for a much shorter period of time. I think the worst part of the Soft Haste Cap is that even a fight can change it's value. Getting haste from being in the air on Alysrazor or when you gain the buff from Sinestra. You would have to recalculate your soft haste cap for several different fights. Another issue with it is that the soft haste cap has a much higher importance in a shorter fight. The shorter the fight is the higher percentage of time is fought under the Blood Lust effect. Additional effects like Blood Lust during a portion of a fight where the boss takes increased amounts of damage will skew this value and make haste more important. The debate isn't where the soft haste cap is, but instead if it's worth going for. There's a reason there isn't a lot of information out there about the Arcane Mage soft haste cap and I believe it's, because it gives inconsistent and unreliable results.

With all of this being said, I would like to point out that I will still be going for mastery and not worry too much about the soft haste cap. If a progression fight is requiring more damage I may look into optimizing my gear for that specific fight, but in general I will continue to reforge for mastery. For anyone else reading this, you can't go wrong with mastery.


-Guromin

[Reckert]

There's a reason there isn't a lot of information out there about the Arcane Mage soft haste cap and I believe it's, because it gives inconsistent and unreliable results.

With all of this being said, I would like to point out that I will still be going for mastery and not worry too much about the soft haste cap. If a progression fight is requiring more damage I may look into optimizing my gear for that specific fight, but in general I will continue to reforge for mastery. For anyone else reading this, you can't go wrong with mastery.

-Guromin

100% agree with you there.

I did a couple of more simcrafts today, and the results are never the same (even though I knew this, I tried to change some options in sim, and it was even more different)

I'll also be stacking mastery myself, and simcrafts back me up. Above the like 8500 SP (as I mentioned) it values mastery higher. That makes perfectly good sense, as mastery and int go so well in hand. Unlike haste and mastery.
But speaking of mastery vs haste, we always leave out crit. When I simcraft my gear atm, it values crit as highes, I tend to ignore that because I'm thinking, no way... must be a mistake. Any comments?

[Guromin]

Reckert,

Pretty simple answer to your question here. Critical Strike rating is really good for arcane, but mastery is just better. If your simulation craft is coming up with critical strike rating being much better than mastery I would make sure you have the most up to date version of SimulationCraft and be running a test of at least 10,000 alliterations. If it still says that critical strike is better than mastery by an amount greater than the error percentage reforge for critical strike.

-Guromin

[Reckert]

10.000 litterations and I always download the newest before I start.
But I see you're thinking the same as I am, mastery is better, why is it saying that? Haha :)

Thanks for the help :)