Death Knight discussion

[zYN]

Since armory is down, here's the Frost spec I'm using (as few already asked on IRC): http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathkn ... ,SaI,11685

I really don't feel like one point in CoTG is enough even with some revitalizes, as long as one is using the 2s grace period intelligently. It's easy to squeeze in extra dumps without delaying runes - this is something I've done in UH spec with GoD and it doesn't cause _any_ issues with refreshing through Pestilence. Assuming it's done properly.

Obviously enough, not having enough RP won't be an issue on, say, Festergut. But I can't believe the issue wouldn't show on Saurfang, Putricide (non-p3), Blood Princes, and on LK last phase (very crucial). Maybe I'll just fix two different frost specs - one with 0/2 CotG and one with 2/2.


[edit:] Now that I think about it, it's a bit ass-backwarded - 2/2 gets used less. Maybe 0/2 should be the norm, although 2/2 obviously has its uses too.

[Dumbledizzle]

Hey Synti,

I have a couple questions regarding patch changes that I've tried to make as quick and to the point as possible. First in your aoe spec you go into frost wouldn't a blood sub spec be superior for aoe due to the additional crit for wandering plague and death and decay.

I have seen in various sims and heard from different sources that in our new 3.3.3 frost specs, maxing out killing machine isn't worth it because we won't be able to generate enough runic power to keep up with it. In your spec it looks like you're going with the exact opposite maxing out killing machine and taking a point from chill of the grave and putting it into black ice. What is your reasoning behind this and why would an extra point in black ice be superior to one in subversion?

Today was the first day I've ever played frost so I'm a tad hazy on the min maxing. In many encounters I noticed that I barely had any available gcds for my rime procs. If my runes were on cd i would frost strike until they were up again. My question is, would prioritizing a rime proc over blood strikes or non-km frost strikes be worth it on single target.

Lastly, would sigil of awareness be beneficial to take over sothm/sov on just single target fights or multi-target encounters as well?

As always I appreciate your help,

Dumbledizzle

[zYN]

The Armory link isn't valid quite yet, sorry for that. I'm testing out different stuff.

First in your aoe spec you go into frost wouldn't a blood sub spec be superior for aoe due to the additional crit for wandering plague and death and decay.

For blood sub-spec, I'd go for Reaping - I wouldn't have the points in DC. The fights where AoE is somewhat needed, good single target is also very much needed. I'm ignoring Valithria pretty much altogether - mainly thinking of Deathwhisper and Lich King. You might be quite right, though. Bladed Armor pales in comparison to Black Ice in AoE, but Subversion and 2h-spec (4% 2H damage) might come out on top overall. I also got rid of Bryntroll, so the haste from Frost isn't quite as crucial either anymore.

This is something I'll have to actually delve into, but right now I'm a bit busy testing out Frost. I'll post something about the UH AoE spec later on.

[edit:] With further evaluation, I'll be going with Frost sub-spec if I have to fix up a UH spec at some point.

I have seen in various sims and heard from different sources that in our new 3.3.3 frost specs, maxing out killing machine isn't worth it because we won't be able to generate enough runic power to keep up with it. In your spec it looks like you're going with the exact opposite maxing out killing machine and taking a point from chill of the grave and putting it into black ice. What is your reasoning behind this and why would an extra point in black ice be superior to one in subversion?

I really do think that 0/2 CotG is more than enough in majority of fights where AMS can be used to very good effect. I'll post results after today's raid. But imagine this - you get a free FULL RP bar every 45s on Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, Rotface, Festergut and on Putricide in the P3. Also happens on Sindragosa and Blood-Queen. Add in the random Revitalizes and Raptures. I don't believe that even with smart RGP usage you'll be running out of RP.

As for a point in BI vs Subversion - you might very well be right here as well. Atleast if only single target damage is considered. I don't think this'll make or break the spec though. I'll have to test out some more to see which one is more DPS per point.

My question is, would prioritizing a rime proc over blood strikes or non-km frost strikes be worth it on single target.

I wouldn't prioritize it over Blood runes, ever. Assuming you're running with GoD glyph, which you should, delaying (going over RGP) runes at all doesn't make sense. The choice between landing a FS or landing a rime should be entirely dependent on the situation. Is rime proc gonna run out? Do you have runes coming up? Will you have to skip a GCD at some point if you DON'T use it?

If you have a ton of RP, AMS ready etc, it makes no sense to use a Rime proc as FS does more damage. If you're gonna run into a free GCD sometime soon though, well, obviously enough using Rime and then blowing FS on the previously free GCD is more damage.

Lastly, would sigil of awareness be beneficial to take over sothm/sov on just single target fights or multi-target encounters as well?

Depends on how much AoE-damage there is and how much of it is actually useful damage. For something like HB'ing the ghouls and Shamblers on LK P1 it'll definitely produce bigger numbers. I'm probably going to be running with SoA myself on fights such as LK most of the time, then swap SotHM in during AoE-phase for Val'kyrs. After that's over, swap again to SoA.

[edit:] SoA isn't really performing quite as good as I hoped, even with full ArP. Feel free to try stuff out, I'm not going to bother with it anymore.

[zYN]

Easily hanging up there with combat rogues, even with 264 weapons. 13k+ at Saurfang while not playing close to optimal even.

UH went up by a pretty fair amount, too.


[edit:] The 0/2 vs 2/2 CotG was pretty much as expected. Can't do any less than 2/2 on Saurfang etc, not with our setups atleast without getting too many empty GCDs.

[Dumbledizzle]

Hey Synti,

You mentioned using GoD, this is still with a tricks correct? The math seems to support icy touch over it without one and how often are you getting tricks on a fight like Lich King or Professor Putricide where you'll lose the buffed up diseases on the transition phases? Also, with GoD and SoA I'm pretty certain subversion will pull ahead of BI (single target of course).

I also noticed out of combat runic power seems to be deteriorating quicker now. I used to be able to get a full bar of rp before our pulls but now I'm having difficulty, have you noticed this as well or am I just losin it?

I tried out the 4/5 in km yesterday and I didn't see it being viable at all.

Lastly, how would you see the stat weights going for frost now. From what I've been able to tell hit > strength > amor pen > expertise > crit > haste correct me if you've seen something different.

Thank you for your time

[zYN]

You mentioned using GoD, this is still with a tricks correct? The math seems to support icy touch over it

I don't agree with the math - the bit I've seen supporting that conclusion was quite flawed. Could be there's some new theories out, but I haven't seen anything convincing (or anything that'd even include ToTT in the evaluation). Also, yes, it's obviously with ToTT whenever available (~every fight).

[edit:] After quite a bit of raiding since 3.3.3, I can say that I'd never drop GoD for IT. The one extra global per 20s is extremely good - not to mention the free Pestilence to adds/whatever.

Also, with GoD and SoA I'm pretty certain subversion will pull ahead of BI (single target of course).

Yes, could be. My Obliterate already has a stupid high crit percentage, however. I can imagine the value of that talent being two or three times more per point at worse gear level than what I'm sporting now.

I also noticed out of combat runic power seems to be deteriorating quicker now.

This is because you are no longer specced into Butchery. It has a hidden component of reducing out-of-combat RP degeneration. I seem to vaguely remember that it was a copied over warrior talent or something, with that 'feature' left in it somehow from reducing rage deterioration. Can't remember - either way, it reduces the rate at which RP is reduced out of combat.

Lastly, how would you see the stat weights going for frost now. From what I've been able to tell hit > strength > amor pen > expertise > crit > haste correct me if you've seen something different.

I'd definitely get expertise soft capped at expense of some other stats (as long as ilvls stay roughly the same), seeing as I'm running with GoD. Any extra GCD through getting dodged is really shit. But yes, those are exactly the rough weights I'd place on stats.

[devolutions]

It's easy to squeeze in extra dumps without delaying runes - this is something I've done in UH spec with GoD and it doesn't cause _any_ issues with refreshing through Pestilence. Assuming it's done properly.

As of patch 3.3.3 I assume GoD is viable with frost dw (considering if u have to proc IIT for raid or not) and the new Unholy Frost subspec is also still viable for GoD?

[zYN]

Some select logs from tonight:

Marrowgar, no ToTT ("#&"%&)
Blood-Queen Lana'thel. Bitten after Shaylee (Queen) & Rakez (Shaylee).
Saurfang. Pretty sub-optimal play.

There's a few other logs there too if you're going to browse. Festergut we had no +10% AP on, Rotface was equally retarded. All in all, we had a pretty .. "interesting" raid tonight, even if it wasn't all that slow. I'm sure I can get easily ~300-500 dps more on next Saurfang and whatnot by simply playing better.

[zYN]

As of patch 3.3.3 I assume GoD is viable with frost dw (considering if u have to proc IIT for raid or not) and the new Unholy Frost subspec is also still viable for GoD?

Yes and yes. GoD is even better than before with the Frost subspec. As it's reapingless, the amount of free GCDs goes down - GoD frees up one more. There's plenty of situations where you'll be overflowing RP if you play right. At the same time, Black Ice boosts the overall disease damage by a nice amount and this is one of the advantages of GoD.

[devolutions]

Nvm found the answer to my question